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Daniel
7th April 2008, 06:40
No Daniel.

First of all, I didn't say anything about Portugal.

You said: If you want to see people going sideways for fun go to your local rally where unskilled idiots with too much money throw their cars sideways and hope that they get around the corner.

You can twist others words to defend what you believe to be your point but that doesn't change matters.

You made a broad and condescending, if not insulting, comment. Additionally, you didn't do it in spoken word, where one's intent can be communicated in a broader sense; you did it in the written word, where your audience can only take you for exactly what you have written. If you cannot understand the difference in that then I have no further words for you.

Obviously, as you have elaborated as this discussion has dragged on, you meant more than your initial comment would reflect. Where is the harm in simply saying "I should have been more direct or specific". Or simply stating, "you know, I didn't make my point clearly". Like it or not, what you communicate, is not a product of your intent or attempt, but what your audience understands and perceives. No matter how diligently you defend "what" you said, it only matters what your audience "heard".

Seriously. You people don't quite get it.

You know what. If you walked down the road here you're probably hear birds tweeting. Does that mean that's the only sound you'll hear? NO of course it bloody well doesn't. I don't need to explicitly freaking state that in addition to the people that just want to go sideways at rallies there are 10 that are very skilled, 2 that have wooden legs, 1 that has a hook for a hand. It goes without saying that at all events there are some very skilled people and some not so skilled people. IT GOES WITHOUT SAYING. GET IT?!?!?!?!?!?!?!!?!?!? As in I don't need to explicitly state that in addition to the people who are unskilled there are a lot of drivers who are very skilled and could probably go a lot further given sponsorship/money.

For the record and for the last frigging time.......

There are things called club rallies. Where you simply need a car which is prepared to the relevant standards set out in the series regulations or by the MSA or FIA or whoever is in charge of that sort of thing in the country. Then you need yourself and your co-driver who both need relevant licences to rally and also you need clothing and so on. What this means is that pretty much anyone can rally at a club level. You could be Sebastien Loeb or Robert Mugabe and the organisers probably wouldn't care. You pays your entry fee and you does your rallying. Your goal could be to go as fast as possible, not die or to go as sideways as possible. Many if not all world champions have competed at a club level so OBVIOUSLY (in fact one could say it GOES WITHOUT SAYING :rolleyes: ) there are some VERY skilled people who compete at this level. Of course there are some less skilled people also.

Is that explicit enough for you? :rolleyes:

Daniel
7th April 2008, 06:42
Everyone's entitled to opinion - whether you agree with it is up to you. No one should have to apologise if they dont feel they have to.

Personally I dont agree with what Daniel is saying but I will sure as hell defend his right to say it

Fair enough and I respect your right to not agree with me and the fact that you don't seem to feel somehow obliged to have a pitched battle over what you think I said :up:

You're the only person here who has any common sense and I include myself in that statement just so everyone is clear on that ;)

N.O.T
7th April 2008, 06:58
I think its a bit unfair to call all the local event drivers talentless idiots...i mean you have to start from somewhere...even Loeb was a local driver a few years back...

On the other hand there are many who fall into the category of the sick dog (far more elegant term don;t you think?) and run local village events....the problem, the uglyness and the beuty of rallying is that everyone with money can do it....throw a few money out of the window and you can brag you are a rally competitor, that you love the sport and this and that....and you also demand respect just for throwing some money away.....well i might dissapoint you but you are no rally competitor....you are a sick dog without an owner....if you want respect you earn it by doing far better things than spent euros. Don;t get me wrong you don;t have to be a champion to be considered a rally driver but at least you have to show you can be competitive in the equipment you are in.

Now on the boring Loeb thing.... !!!!! GO WATCH DRIFT RACING !!!!!! leave rallying alone of your presence...... I do also enjoy when a driver goes sideways because the situation demands it...that shows skill...drifting just for the drift is not what rallying is all about.

both the above sentences do not refer to anyone personally...they are just general commants.

N.O.T
7th April 2008, 07:00
...they are just general commants.

Jamaican accent rules don;t you think ???

Helstar
7th April 2008, 07:11
Jamaican accent rules don;t you think ???
You know ... it exists also an "edit" button :p

The sad thing of all this is that we have finally understood every driver until 2002 or so was a totally unskilled sideways one :\
50+ years of rally trashed ... I must go see all Fast and Furious films now, damn. Will I survive.

N.O.T
7th April 2008, 07:30
You know ... it exists also an "edit" button :p

The sad thing of all this is that we have finally understood every driver until 2002 or so was a totally unskilled sideways one :\
50+ years of rally trashed ... I must go see all Fast and Furious films now, damn. Will I survive.

every driver was sideways before 2002 ?????? you learn something new every day......

Daniel
7th April 2008, 07:36
Now on the boring Loeb thing.... !!!!! GO WATCH DRIFT RACING !!!!!! leave rallying alone of your presence...... I do also enjoy when a driver goes sideways because the situation demands it...that shows skill...drifting just for the drift is not what rallying is all about

Exactly my view also :)

Daniel
7th April 2008, 07:38
You know ... it exists also an "edit" button :p

The sad thing of all this is that we have finally understood every driver until 2002 or so was a totally unskilled sideways one :\
50+ years of rally trashed ... I must go see all Fast and Furious films now, damn.

Oh come on Helstar :) It's simply because of the fact that the cars don't reward sideways driving. I agree very much with you that it would be nice to see more sideways driving in the WRC but until the cars change we're not going to see that and I will simply appreciate the skill that goes into Loeb driving faster than everyone else.

If I had my choice I'd go back in time to the 80's and experience Group A a bit more and have more memories. I only ever got to see the group A glory days on one rally and I feel like I lost out big time. I just remember the cars being so sideways and so fast. I'd take that over todays rallying in a flash

Not sure where this whole one eyed fan thing comes from. I saw Loeb back in 2002 on Rally Oz and thought that he would be a great driver in the future even though he'd not done much in a WRCar up until then and the Xsara was very new to gravel. I backed a winner, I was lucky. I also thought Duval would be a great driver in the future and now look where he is :mark: Sometimes you back a winner and sometimes you back a loser.

N
7th April 2008, 08:15
If you want to see sideways action, go to a drifting event!
If you want to see the fastest driver, go to a rally.

Helstar
7th April 2008, 08:23
If you want to see sideways action, go to a drifting event!
If you want to see the fastest driver, go to a rally.
And don't forget to have some tyres experts with you so they can cut them if needed http://www.motorsportforums.com/forums/images/icons/icon14.gif

Ps. Your last post is good Daniel, but I was obviously ironic. I know the problem is mainly the WRC cars. Look at what Gigi has became. Almost 100% less sideway (he must do the "job" now...).

Daniel
7th April 2008, 08:36
And don't forget to have some tyres experts with you so they can cut them if needed :up:

Ps. Your last post is good Daniel, but I was obviously ironic. I know the problem is mainly the WRC cars. Look at what Gigi has became. Almost 100% less sideway (he must do the "job" now...).

Of course. But I just wanted to make my point :)

It is a pity that guys like Gigi who are I will admit are interesting to watch have to tone themselves down to get decent stagetimes. The formula used in the WRC should reward a certain level of sideways driving but it just doesn't. But as we all know this is a function of the cars. The cars have been perfected to the point where they just have too much grip for the amount of power and you get the relatively boring (when compared to the way group A used to be) driving we have today. It's still great and a newcomer would probably think it's the best but when you have seen all those great drivers driving sideways and being fast there just seems to be missing. Bring back sideways. But only if that's the quickest way to get through the stage :)

The sad thing is that you can't stop teams using weather crews. At the end of the day weather crews aren't all that expensive over a season when you compare them with the expensive transmission systems the cars use. I think what should happen is that a good weather service should be provided to the manufacturers and also privateers at a cost to the manufacturers by the rally organisers. Provide a good enough service at a decent price and the incentive to spend lots of money on a weather crew will be gone and all teams will have access to the same information and would be able to choose what cuts to give their tyres based on the same advice all the others have.

Daniel
7th April 2008, 08:46
Helstar if you like sideways you'll like this :p

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=8K9UVdlptqM&feature=related

AndyRAC
7th April 2008, 10:44
It’s getting a bit heated in here; blimey it’s getting like the F1 forum. I’d say we’re all Rallyfans on here. I think we’d all agree that the WRC is not what it was, and the sideways issue is something else to complain about. Let’s be honest, the WRC is coming to a crossroads, is the S2000 going to be the solution to all it’s problems, I mean was Argentina a good advert for the sport? In 1994 the winning margin was a handful of seconds, this year the top 4 were separated by 20+ minutes. I could go on but won’t,..

Brother John
7th April 2008, 11:53
If you want to see sideways action, go to a drifting event!
If you want to see the fastest driver, go to a rally.

Wrong! :s mokin:

If you want see the fastest driver, go to circuit racing!!!
If you want see fast and sideways. go to rallycross !!!
And if possible go to see real rally on gravel roads, There you can see everything about which it goes on this forum! I mean on the rallythread's. http://www.autosportforum.be/images/smilies/tongue.gif

Helstar
7th April 2008, 18:41
Helstar if you like sideways you'll like this :p

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=8K9UVdlptqM&feature=related
Toy car, many errors but very funny ye (I wonder why the co-driver was outside the car when he rolled last time ?!).

The sticker "NO FEAR" explains it all, a man with a mission :) he is like Errani with the Skoda Octavia lol