2008 Rally Argentina - official thread

[Audimadgeoff]

How old is Rautenbach?

Does he have any chance in the future? I know he's poor at the moment, but he may have potential if he's under 22.

And why do you say he is poor??? This is his 5th ever WRC round in a World Car, he's never competed on the event before and although he's a fair way behind Sordo he IS 5th overall!!! :eek: :D

(You have to be in it to win it! :p )

[janvanvurpa]

you just posted something in french in an english speaking forum.....

WOW!!!
How long did it take before you realised that?

Is it really that much different?
I had no trouble and I haven't been in France for 15 years, haven't raced there for 30.
The key thing is this:
On ne prend pas de plaisir et beaucoup de risques pour rien.»

One takes no pleasure and lots of risks for nothing.
«Autoriser un "cut" serait très simple, le même "cut" pour tout le monde, et ça ferait beaucoup pour la sécurité.

Authorise one "cut" would be very simple, the same "cut" for everybody, and that would do a lot for the safety".

You know, rather than your complaining, you could simply ask somebody here to help translate it since you yourself can't even TRY.

[pettersolberg29]

By at the moment - I mean this season he has crashed a lot.

He is doing well; to finish today is impressive! And 5th is great.

But WILL he get better in the future?

[paddocknews]

Day 2:
http://nettitv.mtv3.fi/maksuttomat/index.shtml/maksuttomat/ralli/ralli?127705#127705

[malscar]

And here's the best image of the day:


How come it is from Mexico then?

[DonJippo]

How come it is from Mexico then?

:rotflmao: it happens ...

[malscar]

How about this one from http://www.ewrc.cz

http://www.ewrc.cz/images/2008/wrc/ar/da_a_5_atkinson_1.jpg

[SubaruNorway]

How come it is from Mexico then?

Thats not Mexico. Look at the red rally sticker on the bonnet, Mexico was yellow

[malscar]

My apologies. If you look at the properties, it says Mexico.

[jparker]

Why best? You haven't seen rally car jumping?
Just kidding. I'm glad that at least one person is having fun this weekend :o



And here's the best image of the day:

http://i303.photobucket.com/albums/nn158/pettersolberg29/Petter-Mexico08.jpg

[RS]

Hmmm, nice rally, I feel the time is right for Anthony Warmbold to make a comeback.

Hey Finn guys, ask me again if the world's best drivers are in the top 8 :D

[cosmicpanda]

I don't know why people are complaining, this rally's no worse than Catalunya last year.

I bet that even if every rally was like NZ '07 we'd have people complaining. Let's face it, not every rally will be a classic.

And it makes me laugh to hear people say that rallies aren't tests of endurance any more - true, they are shorter, but in Argentina this year days one and two are 150+ kms of competitive kilometres each, and that's gotta take it out of you. And the FIA is making the distance longer next year by about 50 km next year, I think.

OK, so I think they should run El Condor again since it's the iconic stage of the rally, but what can you do.

[GigiGalliNo1]

Where's EL MATADOR?!?!?!

:p

[Tomi]

Hey Finn guys, ask me again if the world's best drivers are in the top 8 :D

Lol, i was thinking about the the talk few days ago too, luckly theese kind of freak events happens not often :)

[DonJippo]

I don't know why people are complaining, this rally's no worse than Catalunya last year.

Because some people like to complain just for the sake of it, does not matter what happens they will figure out something to complain.

[Fang]

Just watched Mikko's incident on wrc.com. I feel so sorry for him

[White Sauron]

Just watched Mikko's incident on wrc.com. I feel so sorry for him

Indeed. He would have deserved this win...

[Glee]

SS 19 soon under way
Will the Schooby's hold for the rest of the day?

[HaCo]

SS 19 soon under way
Will the Schooby's hold for the rest of the day?
Let's hope!

[pettersolberg29]

When does SS19 start (GMT)?

[southerncross]

And also how good to see Chris doing great for the down under mob. been watching the lad since his father rallied in OZ in the 80s And SRT well doing after hard ork
Perfect GMT times for me - brilliant!

Really buzzing about this one - although after 3 years of suffering, if Petter doesn't have a good result here I will have to kill someone...

[pino]

Go Rauntenbach...get onto the podium :p :

[SubaruNorway]

ss 19 starts 10:13 local time here's the time in Cordoba http://www.timeanddate.com/worldclock/city.html?n=485

So still a few hours to go 15:13 Norwegian time

[uncoversport]

Hey guys,

While you're all waiting for today's leg to start, I found some more images from the last two days. You've got to click on the thumnail with these articles to get the gallery up, but then you can scroll about.

Leg 2:
http://www.serviceparknews.com/?c=118&a=1251

Leg 1:
http://www.serviceparknews.com/?c=118&a=1248

It's a shame Atkinson backed off. I know it's probably the smart thing to do, and that it's probably got some team orders behind it, but still...would have been nice to see him maintain second.

[pettersolberg29]

Sorry for being dim, but does that mean SS19 is 13:13 GMT?

[Tom206wrc]

Go Rauntenbach...get onto the podium :p :




Aigner could even climb on the podium :eek:


With Loeb-Sordo-Aigner that would be an incredible result for RedBull colors :laugh:

[wrc_flipper]

Sorry for being dim, but does that mean SS19 is 13:13 GMT?

SS19 is at 13:13 BTS - 12:13 GMT
S20 15:05 BST - 14:05 GMT
S21 16:50 BST - 15:50 GMT

- I think :)

[SubaruNorway]

All i know its when the clock turns 10:13 here it starts :p
http://www.timeanddate.com/worldclock/city.html?n=485

so about two more hours

[Mauri A]

Aigner could even climb on the podium :eek:


With Loeb-Sordo-Aigner that would be an incredible result for RedBull colors :laugh:
One victory for Red Bull already, Mika Kallio in MotoGp 250!

[Tom206wrc]

By at the moment - I mean this season he has crashed a lot.

He is doing well; to finish today is impressive! And 5th is great.

But WILL he get better in the future?




Yes in Greece and Cyprus :p :

[pettersolberg29]

Petter is 23 hours quicker after 1st split!

[pettersolberg29]

As is Chris!

[pettersolberg29]

But now Petter is 23 hours slower than Loeb after split 2?!

[SubaruNorway]

times on wrc.com were apparently wrong, says 9:13 on the organisers site.

[pettersolberg29]

Has Solberg stopped? :(

[HaCo]

Both Solberg and Atkinson have stopped on the stage...

[pettersolberg29]

Solberg's out...

[pettersolberg29]

Why does this always happen :(

So gutting all the time.

[SubaruNorway]

mhm

[John V]

Both Solberg and Atkinson have stopped on the stage...

Seems Atko running normally ...

[White Sauron]

Rautenbach on the podium??? It would be a total nonsense...

[pettersolberg29]

Rautenbach out as well...

[pettersolberg29]

I actually hate Sundays.

Another crap car for Petter - why does Petter get all the bad luck, and Chris is so f-ing lucky?

After 8 or 9 years of loving rally, I'm just fed up with this.

[John V]

Rautenbach out as well...

Maybe Mikko is going for podium place :)

[Langdale Forest]

Rautenbach out as well...

He has finished the stage.

[paddocknews]

Rautenbach out as well...

he has completed the stage.

[Langdale Forest]

Sordo was faster then Loeb on the stage.
Loeb doesent need to go fast now.

[muscrae]

what happened to Petter?

[SubaruNorway]

you can't finish the rally if you retire on the last day this year, right?

[MJW]

Electrical problems for Petter

[pettersolberg29]

Petter had electrical probs.

[car1279]

good wishes from rally radio...
"it could be 1-2-3 for citroen"

[Mr Lopez]

fantastic time for Villagra...?

[Tomi]

It looks good for Ford manu points again :)

[Mr Lopez]

henning stopped on stage

[Mr Lopez]

interesting fact... rautenbach is 4th - 18 mins off the lead. At the end of Mina Clavero last year this time diff to the leader would have put him in 14th, 2 and a half mins behind the group N leader....

[Mr Lopez]

great battle for second in PWRC - Beltran 6.6 behind Nasser

[MikeD]

you can't finish the rally if you retire on the last day this year, right?

Right. Remember Rautenbach when he crashed some 20 meters before the finish line in the final stage. He was still not classified as having finished the rally.

[cosmicpanda]

interesting fact... rautenbach is 4th - 18 mins off the lead. At the end of Mina Clavero last year this time diff to the leader would have put him in 14th, 2 and a half mins behind the group N leader....

shows what rain, hard tyres and bad luck do to a rally. :)

[SubaruNorway]

only 6,6 betwene Nasser and Beltarn, so there's atleast something to watch

[Mickey T]

Conrad for manu points, all of a sudden, looks like a stroke of genius.

even if he's two coffees, a chocolate milkshake, eggs benedict and the morning papers off the pace.

hopefully, the points will give him some confidence to build on. but i doubt it.

shame for petter - and subaru.

[Langdale Forest]

SS 20 has started.

[Langdale Forest]

Loeb is going very fast.

[paddocknews]

SS20: Lot of mud on road, low visibility

[dimviii]

arai retired from?

[Tomi]

propably the easiest rally for loeb ever, if he get to the finish.

[cosmicpanda]

loeb was complaining about the unsafe tyres. And check out his total time so far, five hours!

[pantealex]

Atkinson?
edit.OK

[Tomi]

yes, but only competition for a few stages

[pucky54]

will the last one be Live on wrc.com?

[Daniel]

I think Conrad is on for a win. What skill to drive a car so slowly you can't hit anything or crash. Just needs to wait for global warning to get rid the cars in front.

[N.O.T]

Its the first time in years that the event organisers delivered a good event without cancellations and it proved to be the most boring of them all......

[N.O.T]

I think Conrad is on for a win. What skill to drive a car so slowly you can't hit anything or crash.

Its conrad we are talking here......there is no safe speed with him behind the wheel....he wasn't exactly flying the previous times he crashed it....

[Daniel]

True. Conrad's not even safe on normal roads :)

[SubaruNorway]

will the last one be Live on wrc.com?

its on here in Norway and on Eurosport 2 atleast

[SubaruNorway]

True. Conrad's not even safe on normal roads :)

Yhea didn't he go off on the roadsection in sweden :p

[pucky54]

no web coverage at all?

[SubaruNorway]

No splits on Nasser!

[dimviii]

Beltran said....
"Think nasser had some problem. One stage yet to go, I hope we will reach the finish."

[dimviii]

disaster for the new n14 subarus!

[Simmi]

Am I right in thinking Matt Wilson has had a problem or gone off in the penultimate stage?

[ProRally]

disaster for the new n14 subarus!

True very true... better to keep using the 2007 model (or like Prodrive like to call it N12b)

[SubaruNorway]

Am I right in thinking Matt Wilson has had a problem or gone off in the penultimate stage?

Broken front suspension i heard

[Tom206wrc]

What happened to Sandell on SS19 ??? :(

[Waldrons11]

Have none of you British based guys read the front page of the News of the World Today?!

[pucky54]

Stopped to say Hi to Petter

[bf1_IRL]

Have none of you British based guys read the front page of the News of the World Today?!

Not British but I heard about it.. its on their website too :eek:

Back to topic: Any word if SS20 is being broadcast online?

[Simmi]

Have none of you British based guys read the front page of the News of the World Today?!

Yeah I didnt know whether to start a thread on it or not. Controversial stuff from Mr Mosley. And also in a way hilarious. Could it be the end of his reign at the FIA?

[bf1_IRL]

Super Special LIVE now on wrc.com
well will be in a couple of mins, they are doing a quick round up now :)

[dimviii]

bf1-IRL can you give a link pls?

[pucky54]

LOL
wrc.com

[bennizw]

No live footage on wrc.com yet?

[bf1_IRL]

bf1-IRL can you give a link pls?

http://broadcast.global-mix.net/?m=gmuk-n.one-tv&.wvx=

[dimviii]

thanks mate! ;)

[bf1_IRL]

No probs :)

As for Max, Can the News of the World see the lawyers coming yet?

[dimviii]

conrad in sss was perfect :p :

[bf1_IRL]

He could have beaten Sordo if he didn't do that..

[White Sauron]

conrad in sss was perfect :p :

Yeah, all but repeated his Monaco' "success")))

[bf1_IRL]

Yeah, I bet he was thinking "not again"
Poor Villagra..

[Fiorio]

Grrr villagra why dont lose more 10 seconds :(

[Tom206wrc]

Congratulations to the Citroën-Sport team !!! The cars and drivers were totally reliable this time :bounce:

Great result for Chris Atkinson also, his third podium of the year :)

[COD]

Looking at final results of this rally it is hard to tell if one should laugh or cry

[Harde]

A good performance from Loeb, again.

But, Rautenbach finishes the rally in 4th place and loses over 20 minutes to Loeb?? This is just pathetic, really shows how low the WRC can go... :(

[N.O.T]

pretty boring event.....things now look grim for the young kids at ford.....but they have plenty of rallies on their surface to come, they have to work hard to narrow the gap.

Great job by atko once more !!!! well done !!!

[MikeD]

Yes, great win by Loeb. Very deserved!

And great job by Citroën with 3 cars in top 4.

And Red Bull are sponsors on the winning car in both WRC and PWRC. Great result for them as well.

[Langdale Forest]

Loeb is the first person to win Rally Argentina four times in a row.
The superspecial stage was fun to watch.

[kabouter]

A good performance from Loeb, again.

But, Rautenbach finishes the rally in 4th place and loses over 20 minutes to Loeb?? This is just pathetic, really shows how low the WRC can go... :(

In 1985, during the "Golden Age" of Group B, the number four in Argentina was one hour back on the winner (ok, the rally had 2.5 times more stage distance), and that number four was multiple Safari winner Shekhar Mehta in a works Nissan. Perceptions of the highs and lows of WRC rallying tend to change with time...

[BDunnell]

In 1985, during the "Golden Age" of Group B, the number four in Argentina was one hour back on the winner (ok, the rally had 2.5 times more stage distance), and that number four was multiple Safari winner Shekhar Mehta in a works Nissan. Perceptions of the highs and lows of WRC rallying tend to change with time...

Indeed. Close finishes and short gaps between placings on the long, rough events were all but unheard-of.

[wotaguy]

great to see another podium for atkinson, was pleased with citroens, at least miko bagged some points, still along way to go

[playmo]

In 1985, during the "Golden Age" of Group B, the number four in Argentina was one hour back on the winner (ok, the rally had 2.5 times more stage distance), and that number four was multiple Safari winner Shekhar Mehta in a works Nissan. Perceptions of the highs and lows of WRC rallying tend to change with time...

And also night stages, right? and with that kind of weather....
Think the pont here is maybe the lack of competitiveness from much of the "field", right?

[BDunnell]

To be fair, Argentina never used to be a very competitive rally, because the entry list of works cars always tended to be poor. I don't think 2008's event was a particular low point.

[pettersolberg29]

This would have all ended much better had Petter got 2nd...

It would have made the chase for 2nd in the drivers race much closer, and got Subaru 14 manufacturer points.

The next rally won't come quickly as I'll keep thinking what could have been if Petter had not had mechanical probs here and in Mexico (he would have been on 23 points!) - I'll need to drown my sorrows tonight - and I'm only 16! Don't report me :)

[Magnus]

You are 16 ps29. And it is sunday... :s
Well well, it is your call ;)

[tmx]

I don't remember knowing any other kids my age during high school that follow the 18yo rule. Just don't binge drink.


Loeb is the first person to win Rally Argentina four times in a row.
The superspecial stage was fun to watch.
stop telling me his statistics.

[gloomyDAY]

This would have all ended much better had Petter got 2nd...

It would have made the chase for 2nd in the drivers race much closer, and got Subaru 14 manufacturer points.

The next rally won't come quickly as I'll keep thinking what could have been if Petter had not had mechanical probs here and in Mexico (he would have been on 23 points!) - I'll need to drown my sorrows tonight - and I'm only 16! Don't report me :) Don't trash your brain cells already. At least wait until college. Trust me, college babes > high school burnouts.

Anyway, I'm also really pissed off that the S12 crapped out on Petter once again. I woke up, rolled out of bed, and groaned when I read the news. I'm getting sick of being so optimistic.


I have a sneaky feeling that Petter will get a podium.
He's 0-2 this season in points, so third time's a charm.
I jinxed it!

Excuse my statement. Petter is now 2-4 in points with no podiums.

[Micke_VOC]

What happened to Sandell on SS19 ??? :(

He got a hole in the Radiator.

[dumb]

Anybodie knows where I can watch SSS stage?I haven't chance to watch it live.Anybodie knows where is that video?

[Helstar]

Looking at final results of this rally it is hard to tell if one should laugh or cry
The Second You've Said

[pettersolberg29]

You are 16 ps29. And it is sunday... :s
Well well, it is your call ;)


Perhaps just a coke now I've calmed down a bit!

My folks just got home and wondered why there were holes in the wall! They didn't accpet my reason that it was because Petter retired!

[Woodeye]

Looking at final results of this rally it is hard to tell if one should laugh or cry

Couldn't agree more. This rally was a complete waste of time. Next one please! (it's third or fourth time when I say that, getting bored to watch 2nd class drivers to lose over ten minutes to winner) :mad:

[Roy]

Looking at final results of this rally it is hard to tell if one should laugh or cry

I am happy I had a busy weekend with another things to do. I didn't missed this rally. :s

[pettersolberg29]

Anyway, I'm also really pissed off that the S12 crapped out on Petter once again. I woke up, rolled out of bed, and groaned when I read the news. I'm getting sick of being so optimistic.
Excuse my statement. Petter is now 2-4 in points with no podiums.

What does '2-4 in points with no podiums' mean? Is it some WRC talk I've yet to hear of?

[Tomi]

Well deserved win from Loeb, nice to see Atkinson doing good result too, hopefully the new car brings him chances to really go for the win.

[ste898]

I can see why so many people have little interest in WRC its a total joke now..I wonder if it will ever be great again like the 80's and 90's I doubt it very much......

What exactly did Loeb win this weekend? A event with only 20 stages and no opposition for most of the event oh yes he must feel great!!!

[gloomyDAY]

What does '2-4 in points with no podiums' mean? Is it some WRC talk I've yet to hear of?2 rallies out of 4 with points, but Petter has not scored any podiums. Clear?

[AndyRAC]

I can see why so many people have little interest in WRC its a total joke now..I wonder if it will ever be great again like the 80's and 90's I doubt it very much......

What exactly did Loeb win this weekend? A event with only 20 stages and no opposition for most of the event oh yes he must feel great!!!

I don't like to be a pessimist, but I agree with you. The sooner the new regulations come in the better - the WRC needs a shot in the arm, very quickly!
Interestingly, my brothers said that Rally Argentina had been mentioned on Sky Sports News - which is unusual. They then said about Maradona's trip with Loeb - just sums up the WRC, doesn't it?

[gloomyDAY]

I don't like to be a pessimist, but I agree with you. The sooner the new regulations come in the better - the WRC needs a shot in the arm, very quickly!
Interestingly, my brothers said that Rally Argentina had been mentioned on Sky Sports News - which is unusual. They then said about Maradona's trip with Loeb - just sums up the WRC, doesn't it?Really? The highlight of Rally Argentina was Loeb giving a soccer player a little ride-along.....

[Audimadgeoff]

True. Conrad's not even safe on normal roads :) and you have never made a single mistake in life???

Yes the WRC is currently in a bit of a sorry state but what do you want Conrad to do... stop and say 'na, I don't deserve these points...'

Don't be daft... he drove to finish, to gain experience and maanged to keep his nose clean... unlike the others! He's a fast learner and will get better!

[Fischer]

WRC is dead.

[ste898]

WRC is dead.


I will second that after this weekend!!!

[N.O.T]

He's a fast learner and will get better

Well... he cannot get worse, thats a certainty...

[Isthmus]

I will second that after this weekend!!!

I hope you say the same in the next Ford rally win.


ste898
I can see why so many people have little interest in WRC its a total joke now..I wonder if it will ever be great again like the 80's and 90's I doubt it very much......

What exactly did Loeb win this weekend? A event with only 20 stages and no opposition for most of the event oh yes he must feel great!!!

I´m sure he doesn´t...he would like to have real competition then the one he has.
In this weekend won, not only Loeb+skills, but also Citroën+reability.
Ford lost everything.

In the couple of years ago, there was the lucky and the "special" tyres from BF to Citroën. Now WRC is dead. WRC will be alive again when your brand/pilot win again.
Are you tired about S.Loeb? Blame the competition, not the best ones.

[BDunnell]

I'm not usually one to defend the modern WRC, but I think we need to get things into perspective here. Have a look at the results on RallyBase for Argentine rallies going back to the early 1980s — http://www.rallybase.nl/index.php?type=rally&rallytype=Arg. The range of leading contenders every time was deeply unimpressive, with one or more works teams not even making the trip each year. It used to be a very poorly supported event. At least it now gets what passes for a full works entry. As for the level of competition, well, what do we expect in 2008?

[BDunnell]

Now WRC is dead. WRC will be alive again when your brand/pilot win again.

I can't agree with that. I don't 'support' any team or driver over all the rest, and I think the WRC in its current form is dying.

[Fischer]

Yes you're right, the dominance of one driver doesn't make the WRC boring but the lack of competition combined with one driver winning almost every rally (sometimes every stage of a rally) does.

When Makinen dominated there was atleast Sainz, McRae, Kankkunen, Auriol but now that Gronholm is gone Loeb's biggest opponent is his own mistakes and we all know Loeb does not make mistakes so quickly.

[bowler]

Looking back in history, it would be hard to describe this result as "boring" in relation to 30 years of WRC results.

The end result was nothing spectacular to the "No one gets near Loeb...,so it's boring" brigade, but that hardly pays any respect to the results for the others.

How gutted will Latvala and Hirvonnen be. Some small mistakes stole their rally away, and Mikko was going very well. Solberg must be gutted after sitting in a comfortable second, driving a car that was no good last season and is running well now, only to have it stolen by a few loose electrons.

Loeb had to work his butt off to get to where he was, and then hold it. It was no picnic for him at all.

Atkinson running so well in second, lost it until luck intervened.

I don't know how it could be boring to all the couch potatoes. I thought it was a great and hard rally. Life must be tough at the glowing end of a computer screen :-)

Congratulations to Loeb, Atkinson and Sordo, and to Rautenbach who must be feeling pretty good today. If the others fail to finish and you do finish, then the points and satisfaction are still yours.

[Daniel]

and you have never made a single mistake in life???

Yes the WRC is currently in a bit of a sorry state but what do you want Conrad to do... stop and say 'na, I don't deserve these points...'

Don't be daft... he drove to finish, to gain experience and maanged to keep his nose clean... unlike the others! He's a fast learner and will get better!

True. Thing is I only posted that because one of the Rautenbach fans sent me a stupid PM trying to rub my face in the ****. At the end of the day in any other rally Conrad probably wouldn't have scored a point based on his performance this weekend. On the positive side he finished and got the experience he's after :up: Best thing would be if Bob gets the boot today as well.

[Daniel]

I don't know how it could be boring to all the couch potatoes. I thought it was a great and hard rally. Life must be tough at the glowing end of a computer screen :-)

I think that rallying just does not translate from a sport where you stand in a forest getting rained on and showered with **** to a sport where you can "be there" online and people have unrealistic expectations of it as a sport to follow online. I do think the WRC needs to become a sport which you can follow live online with eye in the sky type coverage as well as having proper coverage on the TV for those who don't want to follow in front of a PC.

[Daniel]

I'm not usually one to defend the modern WRC, but I think we need to get things into perspective here. Have a look at the results on RallyBase for Argentine rallies going back to the early 1980s — http://www.rallybase.nl/index.php?type=rally&rallytype=Arg. The range of leading contenders every time was deeply unimpressive, with one or more works teams not even making the trip each year. It used to be a very poorly supported event. At least it now gets what passes for a full works entry. As for the level of competition, well, what do we expect in 2008?

The problem is that this result could happen anywhere and not just in Argentina. Back a few years years ago on a long haul event like Rally Australia you could see 15 works cars on the entry list.

http://rallybase.nl/index.php?type=result&rallyid=321

The top 6 pretty much reads like a who's who of rallying in the 15 years or so. Notice that Antony Warmbold is 14th and not 4th like Conrad is today. But I guess I am merely pointing out the blindingly obvious because the bottom has pretty much fallen out of the WRC since the 3rd driver rule was dropped and we went down to 2 car teams and group N cars and also rans started getting points in rallies when it used to be the case where you'd have to be a works driver with skill and a good car under you to get points.

I am of the opinion that if the FIA thinks that S2000+ on it's own will take the WRC back to it's glory days then they're in for a nasty surprise.

[GigiGalliNo1]

Rautenbach has fans?

[Shrike]

I'm no bandwagon rider so yes, he has one here!

[L5->R5/CR]

interesting fact... rautenbach is 4th - 18 mins off the lead. At the end of Mina Clavero last year this time diff to the leader would have put him in 14th, 2 and a half mins behind the group N leader....



Last year was also shortened by 100+ kms....

[sollitt]

..... and also rans started getting points in rallies when it used to be the case where you'd have to be a works driver with skill and a good car under you to get points.
It used to be the case where anybody entered in the event would score points, so long as they finished high enough in the results.

[AndyRAC]

I am of the opinion that if the FIA thinks that S2000+ on it's own will take the WRC back to it's glory days then they're in for a nasty surprise.


Must admit I’ve thought that – is the S2000 route is the panacea we’ve all been waiting for? How do we know more Manufacturers will join? Just because they currently have S2000 cars doesn’t mean they’ll want to go the whole hog and join in. Could you blame for not joining? What are they going to get out of it? The whole WRC needs a kick up the backside from top to bottom; events, format, etc The shame is there wasn’t a lot wrong with it up until about 2002 – since then a gradual decline.

[Tom206wrc]

Couldn't agree more. This rally was a complete waste of time. Next one please! (it's third or fourth time when I say that, getting bored to watch 2nd class drivers to lose over ten minutes to winner) :mad:



Incredible how are finnish fans when finnish drivers "fail" :s

[Tomi]

Incredible how are finnish fans when finnish drivers "fail" :s

dont generalise, i think most understand the charactare of motorsport and new events comes soon.

[Wim_Impreza]

Incredible how are finnish fans when finnish drivers "fail" :s

When you're Peugeot's and the French guys fail, you are even more angry...

[tmx]

Watching the review saw Loeb were angry with the decision with no cutting the tires, but I am more astound to found out they are actually running on the hard tires in the mud. Don't know how much that may have contribute to Latvala's off. But certainly I wasn't too optimistic with this control tires idea in some special conditions, such as high speed tarmac, could cause big accident in wrong tire in the wet. Hopefully the FIA will review this a bit more, or I'm just over reacting due to watching circuit racing seeing how important it is with the tires being right.

Furthermore when the news wrote 'Pirelli: We overcame a tough test in Mexico'. Ummm, no it didn't seem so for me.

[MikeD]

Looking back in history, it would be hard to describe this result as "boring" in relation to 30 years of WRC results.

The end result was nothing spectacular to the "No one gets near Loeb...,so it's boring" brigade, but that hardly pays any respect to the results for the others.

How gutted will Latvala and Hirvonnen be. Some small mistakes stole their rally away, and Mikko was going very well. Solberg must be gutted after sitting in a comfortable second, driving a car that was no good last season and is running well now, only to have it stolen by a few loose electrons.

Loeb had to work his butt off to get to where he was, and then hold it. It was no picnic for him at all.

Atkinson running so well in second, lost it until luck intervened.

I don't know how it could be boring to all the couch potatoes. I thought it was a great and hard rally. Life must be tough at the glowing end of a computer screen :-)

Congratulations to Loeb, Atkinson and Sordo, and to Rautenbach who must be feeling pretty good today. If the others fail to finish and you do finish, then the points and satisfaction are still yours.

Wise words!

[Brother John]

If he (LOEB) want to have the perfectly tyre he must race on circuit were he belonged! Everyone wants see action and no high speed train!

Why he is angry if he does not in front of all the others? Ooo-yes that makes him this way popular!!!
I agree with Ford this time. Same tyre for everyone!


Watching the review saw Loeb were angry with the decision with no cutting the tires, but I am more astound to found out they are actually running on the hard tires in the mud. Don't know how much that may have contribute to Latvala's off. But certainly I wasn't too optimistic with this control tires idea in some special conditions, such as high speed tarmac, could cause big accident in wrong tire in the wet. Hopefully the FIA will review this a bit more, or I'm just over reacting due to watching circuit racing seeing how important it is with the tires being right.

Furthermore when the news wrote 'Pirelli: We overcame a tough test in Mexico'. Ummm, no it didn't seem so for me.

[Res Ipsa Loquitur]

Congratulations to Seb Loeb for winning. I think Petter Solberg is long overdue a run of good luck after the electrical failure in his Scooby.

[AndyRAC]

If he (LOEB) want to have the perfectly tyre he must race on circuit were he belonged! Everyone wants see action and no high speed train!

Why he is angry if he does not in front of all the others? Ooo-yes that makes him this way popular!!!
I agree with Ford this time. Same tyre for everyone!

Think you’re being a bit harsh. I’m all for exciting action, but surely it was a safety issue he was complaining about. Just having the one tyre for any condition seems crazy to me. I understand Ford’s decision but maybe between now and the next Rally common sense can prevail – and maybe cuts are allowed.

[Torsen]

they need to make sure P. Solberg is on suicide watch!

[J4MIE]

Petter.....when will the guy have some luck??? :s

As for Loeb about the tyres...if it is dangerous to drive faster with them, then slow down.... I thought that was part of the point of it. He is good enough to destroy anyone else anyway so shouldn't affect his results at all.

[Tomi]

Petter.....when will the guy have some luck??? :s

As for Loeb about the tyres...if it is dangerous to drive faster with them, then slow down.... I thought that was part of the point of it. He is good enough to destroy anyone else anyway so shouldn't affect his results at all.

He already did have, because of others retirements he did drive as second for some time already.
It's strange this Loeb and tyres, i dont remember him complainig before, now he started already 1 week before the event.

[xavier]

Petter.....when will the guy have some luck??? :s

As for Loeb about the tyres...if it is dangerous to drive faster with them, then slow down.... I thought that was part of the point of it. He is good enough to destroy anyone else anyway so shouldn't affect his results at all.

My understanding is that the tyres were dangerous even at low speed as they could not evacuate the mud.

If it's okay to make all drivers drive on inadapted tyre, why not do the same with other safety device: let's remove the roll cage, if drivers are worry about their safety, they can slow down.

Subaru and Citroen drivers are in agreement for cut, and apprently Ford's are "not allowed to comment".

[pettersolberg29]

I don't know if anyone watched the wrc.com video of Petter retiring - that 'oh no' physically rips your heart in two - as people have said, when will he get some luck?
And on swrt.com, for the first time I have ever seen Petter hasn't commented at all about the rally. He seems really angry, the swearing is understandable, but this is as low as he was at Finland last year.
I will be surprised if Petter is still in the WRC next year if he deosn't win this year - and rightly so unless Subaru equip him with a car that can actually win which he deserves.
Petter was very good in Argentina, and yet he was still over a minute and a half off the lead. Whatever you guys think, I know Petter is not 1.5 mins worse than Loeb, it is mainly his car. And then like in Mexico, the car gives up. Its a joke.
Petter now needs to take each rally as it comes, as due to Subaru he now has no chance to have a go at the Drivers Championship this year. He needs to get his confidence up for next year, with the new car, on his best events (see 2009 WRC calendar), for his last pop at the drivers title.

And finally, is Jordan a loose gravel event or a packed gravel event? I ask because if it is a loose gravel event, Petter has a great chance there to win with a great road position. If its a packed gravel event, I'll be surprised if he gets any points.
This is a real low for Petter Fans.

[Tomi]

And finally, is Jordan a loose gravel event or a packed gravel event? I ask because if it is a loose gravel event, Petter has a great chance there to win with a great road position. If its a packed gravel event, I'll be surprised if he gets any points.
This is a real low for Petter Fans.

It is hard packed (with salt) drivable roads in Jordan, in other words very good roads for rally.

[Isthmus]

If he (LOEB) want to have the perfectly tyre he must race on circuit were he belonged! Everyone wants see action and no high speed train!

Why he is angry if he does not in front of all the others? Ooo-yes that makes him this way popular!!!
I agree with Ford this time. Same tyre for everyone!

Thats what he said.... cuts for everyone!

[pettersolberg29]

It is hard packed (with salt) drivable roads in Jordan, in other words very good roads for rally.


Does the road get cut up easily for later drivers, say 7th on the road, do you know?

Should I hold any hope for Petter (if the Subaru works), or has he got no chance?

[Tomi]

Does the road get cut up easily for later drivers, say 7th on the road, do you know?

Should I hold any hope for Petter (if the Subaru works), or has he got no chance?

Thats why they have been driving salt, to keep the road in good condition, but offcourse it will cut up some.
But it should be quite equal conditions, and benefit guys who can drive.

[RS]

It used to be the case where anybody entered in the event would score points, so long as they finished high enough in the results.

That sounds just like this year though?

I agree with Daniel that S2000 alone will not 'cure' the WRC, but I think it will certainly help a few of the problems.

The main attraction of S2000 so far for a manufacturer is thay they do not have to compete in a full WRC campaign in order to homolgate one. In fact they could even be profitable for a manufacturer as they are mostly sold to private customers who then go and promote their marque in national championships, ERC or IRC at little or no cost to the manufacturer.

So in other words WRC is still going to have to offer better value for the manufacturers, drivers and sponsors to come back.

[jparker]

My understanding is that the tyres were dangerous even at low speed as they could not evacuate the mud.

If it's okay to make all drivers drive on inadapted tyre, why not do the same with other safety device: let's remove the roll cage, if drivers are worry about their safety, they can slow down.

Subaru and Citroen drivers are in agreement for cut, and apprently Ford's are "not allowed to comment".

I agree with you in general, but in this particular case I think Loeb exaggerated the safety issue. After all even Routenbach managed to finish.

[COD]

The time differences aside, I think saddest thing about this rally is what superrally did for the results. I think Mikko didn't deserve the points (for example). I know superrally is good for the spectators and Tv as more cars are on the road each day, but maybe it could only be for Manu points??

And about Loeb and the tyres.... It is allways easy to complain and make it a safety issue as then any argument against you can be deemed as wanting unsafe rallies. But like J4mie said, there is allways the option of driving more slowly. Mikko said on some report that not cutting tyres seems to affect Citroen's grip on gravel more than Ford's, so that should put Loeb's 2safety" concerns into perspective.

[Shrike]

S2000 wont make loeb less dominant.

[Daniel]

The time differences aside, I think saddest thing about this rally is what superrally did for the results. I think Mikko didn't deserve the points (for example). I know superrally is good for the spectators and Tv as more cars are on the road each day, but maybe it could only be for Manu points??

And about Loeb and the tyres.... It is allways easy to complain and make it a safety issue as then any argument against you can be deemed as wanting unsafe rallies. But like J4mie said, there is allways the option of driving more slowly. Mikko said on some report that not cutting tyres seems to affect Citroen's grip on gravel more than Ford's, so that should put Loeb's 2safety" concerns into perspective.

At the end of the day Sebastien finished the rally in 1st position so I'd be very wary of someone saying the 1st place car was affected more than others :laugh: Perhaps that puts it more into perspective :) I would expect such chat from Petter a few years ago but not from Mikko.....

Driving slowly. There's an idea. Why don't we ban studs on tyres in the monte and in sweden then? Somehow I suspect this wouldn't be a popular move. I'd be pissed off if I went to a rally and saw cars pootling around at road car speeds on a WRC event. That's not cool. Here's an idea! Why don't we keep the spectacle? If the cars can go faster more safely with cuts on muddy roads then give us cuts.

I've said it time and time again I don't feel that Pirelli can make tyres that work in a variety of conditions and I'll keep on saying it till their contract expires and Michelin gets the contract and does a better job of it.....

[xavier]

The time differences aside, I think saddest thing about this rally is what superrally did for the results. I think Mikko didn't deserve the points (for example). I know superrally is good for the spectators and Tv as more cars are on the road each day, but maybe it could only be for Manu points??

And about Loeb and the tyres.... It is allways easy to complain and make it a safety issue as then any argument against you can be deemed as wanting unsafe rallies. But like J4mie said, there is allways the option of driving more slowly. Mikko said on some report that not cutting tyres seems to affect Citroen's grip on gravel more than Ford's, so that should put Loeb's 2safety" concerns into perspective.

As of super rally, yes it's ridiculous that Mikko got more point than Petter... Super rally is a stupid idea (i know i am preaching to the choir) but not allowing super rally in day 3 makes it the one of most idiotic rule ever.

As for the tyres, yes it put it in perspective. But he made the comment when he was 1:30 ahead agaisnt a Subaru, not a Ford. The C4 has been struggling for more grip on gravel since its start. So yes mybe it explain Ford reluctance to allow cut... but apparently out of the 3 full work teams 2 agree that cut should be authorized. I really cannot see why not authorizing cuts is a cost saving. What's next ? Dont authorize to change stock settings?

[pantealex]

So yes mybe it explain Ford reluctance to allow cut... but apparently out of the 3 full work teams 2 agree that cut should be authorized. I really cannot see why not authorizing cuts is a cost saving.
I think Suzuki is full work team also, do they agree tyre cutting or not?

[AndyRAC]

At the end of the day Sebastien finished the rally in 1st position so I'd be very wary of someone saying the 1st place car was affected more than others :laugh: Perhaps that puts it more into perspective :) I would expect such chat from Petter a few years ago but not from Mikko.....

Driving slowly. There's an idea. Why don't we ban studs on tyres in the monte and in sweden then? Somehow I suspect this wouldn't be a popular move. I'd be pissed off if I went to a rally and saw cars pootling around at road car speeds on a WRC event. That's not cool. Here's an idea! Why don't we keep the spectacle? If the cars can go faster more safely with cuts on muddy roads then give us cuts.

I've said it time and time again I don't feel that Pirelli can make tyres that work in a variety of conditions and I'll keep on saying it till their contract expires and Michelin gets the contract and does a better job of it.....

What I can’t believe people saying is drive slower – eh? This is the WRC not some amateur hour contest. If the tyres aren’t good enough – do something about them. I know costs have got to be made, but this is stupid. Personally, it just sums up the current WRC.
As for Pirelli vs Michelin; I think we know why they won/lost the contract – nothing to do with Rallying – Indy 2005.

[Brother John]

What I can’t believe people saying is drive slower – eh? This is the WRC not some amateur hour contest. If the tyres aren’t good enough – do something about them. I know costs have got to be made, but this is stupid. Personally, it just sums up the current WRC.
As for Pirelli vs Michelin; I think we know why they won/lost the contract – nothing to do with Rallying – Indy 2005.

Have wrc still something to do with rally sport? :dozey:
I think Eurosport does exactly what the F.I.A. don´t want to do and is on correct direction for the future of rally. They take a look what the fans wont.
Just look at the good evolution from IRC and in the future of the new competition "IRC Classic"!
F.I.A. want to steal back the success from Eurosport´s IRC, with the new wrc rules of S2000 cars? Are they not able to come with themselves with a good idea? (instead of.........everyone know what must stand here) :rolleyes:

http://www.ircseries.com/html/readNews.asp?id=750

[Daniel]

What I can’t believe people saying is drive slower – eh? This is the WRC not some amateur hour contest. If the tyres aren’t good enough – do something about them. I know costs have got to be made, but this is stupid. Personally, it just sums up the current WRC.
As for Pirelli vs Michelin; I think we know why they won/lost the contract – nothing to do with Rallying – Indy 2005.

So true.

I'm just worried that the WRC will turn into another BTCC. Used to be great and now it's just amateur hour with some good drivers and a lot of others who would be nowhere if not for success ballast and reverse grid races.

[AndyRAC]

Don’t give them ideas, ‘Success Ballast’ imagine that in the WRC? That’s my one problem with the WTCC – a World Championship shouldn’t have gimmicks like that. If a team/car/driver is better than the rest TOUGH!! Get on with it!!

[L5->R5/CR]

I guess I am the only one that thinks the control tire is a good idea, even if the tire isn't the perfect tire for the conditions.

I understand that people want to see rally cars go as fast as possible but for me, and I may be in a severe minority here, part of the appeal is the difficulty and the battling of the conditions.

What I have been able to see of Mikko on the opening loop was inspiring. Part of the appeal is going fast in the impossible. There was a real battling the elements, man and machine versus mother nature sort of deal going on. You could tell Mikko was on the ragged edge and it was some of the most exciting if not spectacular driving I have seen in recent years in the WRC.

We all love seeing teams battle it out on the stages but I also love seeing teams battling the stages. The whole idea of you have to beat the course to win the event is all but gone from the WRC but we saw that return Friday morning and I loved it.

I am probably also the only one that liked the drivers not having the splits. Part of the challenge of rallying is pacing yourselves. Knowing how hard you have to push and how to keep the speed up and not just settle into a steady pace. When you have the splits you don't have to master that mental skill and that is a real shame.

[Tomi]

I think control tyre is good idea too, it cut the rumours and give no space for favouritism, this time just the weather was crap, in dry conditions almost every team would have been happy.
BTW. if cutting tyres would have been allowed, who actually would have done the cutting? For me it's hard to belive that all the teams did have a specialist with them.

[ZequeArgentina]

Loeb is speaking when he is finding no competition, so they are not excuses.
Tyre choosing, slection and lately cuting has always been part of rally.
I understand the benefits of a control tyre, but allowing cutting does not take away anyone of the benefits,and gives drivers and teams the possibility to use heir experience and take risks with theirtyre cutting decisions.

I am in favor of cutting, and in favour of Loeb speaking when he is in his curren position.

Regarding this last round, it istrue is was very boring, but in the "good old days" of rallying (70´s and 80´s) thought rallies usually fund this tpe of final results. It is no THAT bad. I do not like it, but this is also about rallying (fighting with rought conditions, bad weather, and taking care of the car)

[MJW]

Regards Loeb wanting the cuts, on face value I can agree with him, but over the past few years Citroen have had the greater number of weather spotters, meterologists (including MeteoFrance with forecasting trucks on some tarmac events) so I guess they had or potentially have the most to gain if the cutting of gravel tyres rule is relaxed. If Pirelli make the cuts and all users get the same cut maybe this is ok, and is a genuine safety concern. I did see video footage on Eurosport where Loeb's tyre was "clogged" and clearly was not efficient in cleaning the mud.

[BDunnell]

Don’t give them ideas, ‘Success Ballast’ imagine that in the WRC? That’s my one problem with the WTCC – a World Championship shouldn’t have gimmicks like that. If a team/car/driver is better than the rest TOUGH!! Get on with it!!

I agree, though despite my dislike of gimmicks I don't go along with Daniel's views on the BTCC as expressed above, but that's not a matter for here.

Let's face it, stupid tyre rules are not something the modern WRC has a monopoly on. I'm sure I recall some rather misguided tyre regulations in the WRC's past, too.

[COD]

Regards Loeb wanting the cuts, on face value I can agree with him, but over the past few years Citroen have had the greater number of weather spotters, meterologists (including MeteoFrance with forecasting trucks on some tarmac events) so I guess they had or potentially have the most to gain if the cutting of gravel tyres rule is relaxed. If Pirelli make the cuts and all users get the same cut maybe this is ok, and is a genuine safety concern.

Exactly right, if cuts are to be allowed, it should be same cuts for all but Pirelli said they are not prepared to do that, so that's it then.

And when I said drive slower, I meant of course that speed should allways match your equipment. Loeb should stop whining and do what he does best, win rallies

[BDunnell]

And when I said drive slower, I meant of course that speed should allways match your equipment. Loeb should stop whining and do what he does best, win rallies

The 'whining' doesn't seem to be affecting his ability to win, though, does it?

[ZequeArgentina]

Exactly right, if cuts are to be allowed, it should be same cuts for all but Pirelli said they are not prepared to do that, so that's it then.

And when I said drive slower, I meant of course that speed should allways match your equipment. Loeb should stop whining and do what he does best, win rallies


No, no. This is wrong.
Tyre choosing, or in this case at least cutting, should be part of rallying! It is its spirit.

[Helstar]

True. Thing is I only posted that because one of the Rautenbach fans sent me a stupid PM trying to rub my face in the ****.
Conrad has fans ? And they even menace in pvt ? I thought only anti-Gigi guys were doing it http://www.motorsportforums.com/forums/images/icons/icon10.gif

Watching the review saw Loeb were angry with the decision with no cutting the tires, but I am more astound to found out they are actually running on the hard tires in the mud. Don't know how much that may have contribute to Latvala's off. But certainly I wasn't too optimistic with this control tires idea in some special conditions, such as high speed tarmac, could cause big accident in wrong tire in the wet. Hopefully the FIA will review this a bit more, or I'm just over reacting due to watching circuit racing seeing how important it is with the tires being right.
Furthermore when the news wrote 'Pirelli: We overcame a tough test in Mexico'. Ummm, no it didn't seem so for me.
Loeb must shut up now. He starts to be annoying talking like that.
He is already winning the rally and also wants another advantage (yes, with cuts probably C4 would go faster... that's the obvious reason !). How many cars went off road ? Oh wait, only Latvala in a Ford ...
And Pirelli, they had some punctures in Mexico but less than the expected.
Almost zero punctures in Argentina eventhough the massive rocks which broke all the Fords suspensions ! One tyre for all is perfect (now nobody is talking anymore about Citroen getting better tyres from Michelin too :p !).
Pirelli is doing good job. It was nice show on TV too (did you see PG Andersson massive sideways action ? I didn't see that since Gigi in 2005 :p !).

[jso1985]

he's not looking for another advantage, he just thinks the tyre regulations are making the sport a bit more dangerous, so a safer sport won't only benefit him

[bowler]

when the control tyre was introduced it was announced that no cutting would be allowed, and the tyre was made accordingly.

Cutting gives a big advantage to the skilled technicians, who would be in the works teams. The pattern of the cuts would be altered to suit by reports from weather crews.

No cutting =no weather crews=no advantage, which is what was intended.

Sebastien drove very well, and had to work very hard to achieve his win.

[AndyRAC]

I wouldn’t say Pirelli are doing a good job, competent maybe. I’ve never been a huge fan of theirs. They got the contract because they weren’t Michelin.

[Daniel]

when the control tyre was introduced it was announced that no cutting would be allowed, and the tyre was made accordingly.

And as is obvious the tyre wasn't made "accordingly" enough.......

Control tyre = All weather tyre

So by your reckoning the Pirelli control tyre is a crap control tyre?

[charro_wrc]

I........For me it's hard to belive that all the teams did have a specialist with them.

What?????
i guess any wrc team must to have their own tire specialist because the tires are a very important component. anyway if Pirelli doesn`t support all the teams in the same way something is wrong and the FIA should solve that situation.

The FIA risk the security of the crews when they write down silly rules as not allowing cut tires.

The FIA should be thinking how to diminish the risk for the crews, not to increase it.

[Helstar]

And as is obvious the tyre wasn't made "accordingly" enough.......
Control tyre = All weather tyre
So by your reckoning the Pirelli control tyre is a crap control tyre?
That was made to lower the costs ! It's not hard to understand ;)

You (Loeb I mean) think it was dangerous in Argentina (untypical situation anyway) ? Then slow down... and go more sideways (oh wait maybe he can't do it) :p

[ZequeArgentina]

hahha, Loeb can´r go sideways?!?!?!?

The problem I see with this is that we are lowering the field to get more level competition.
If we give a standard shocks to everyone, that would also lower cost and level the field, but no development is made, and the best developers loose their benefit (which is wrong, we shoudl favour talent!!!!!!)

[Helstar]

hahha, Loeb can´r go sideways?!?!?!?
The problem I see with this is that we are lowering the field to get more level competition.
If we give a standard shocks to everyone, that would also lower cost and level the field, but no development is made, and the best developers loose their benefit (which is wrong, we shoudl favour talent!!!!!!)
Ok let's do a Citroen + Michelin championship then. All controlled by those you like... and you guys are happy ! http://www.motorsportforums.com/forums/images/icons/rolleyes.gif

Ps. Yes Loeb can't go sideways. I mean: he avoids to ... because he is "oh no I will lose precious time on every corner plus destroy my tyres ... who cares about doing some show for people I only want to win" type of racer.

(yes first time I'm actually bashing Loeb, it was time uh ? ^^)

[COD]

The 'whining' doesn't seem to be affecting his ability to win, though, does it?


Helped by Ford boys stupid mistakes, but no. It just makes him look ridiculous.

[Brother John]

Ok let's do a Citroen + Michelin championship then. All controlled by those you like... and you guys are happy ! http://www.motorsportforums.com/forums/images/icons/rolleyes.gif

Ps. Yes Loeb can't go sideways. I mean: he avoids to ... because he is "oh no I will lose precious time on every corner plus destroy my tyres ... who cares about doing some show for people I only want to win" type of racer.

(yes first time I'm actually bashing Loeb, it was time uh ? ^^)

:up: good one Helstar! Yes IMO Loeb not belongs in rallysport, he better move to F1 or Le Mans serie!
I don´t see a problem with the control tyre for rally.
Wasn't it also the intention making wrc attractive again?
For this reason wrc must go away of high tech. cars with special tyres which come past as a train or a F1 car! :s mokin:

[cosmicpanda]

Ps. Yes Loeb can't go sideways. I mean: he avoids to ... because he is "oh no I will lose precious time on every corner plus destroy my tyres ... who cares about doing some show for people I only want to win" type of racer.

I can't believe that you criticize a rally driver for being the fastest.

[Raini]

Ok let's do a Citroen + Michelin championship then. All controlled by those you like... and you guys are happy ! http://www.motorsportforums.com/forums/images/icons/rolleyes.gif

Ps. Yes Loeb can't go sideways. I mean: he avoids to ... because he is "oh no I will lose precious time on every corner plus destroy my tyres ... who cares about doing some show for people I only want to win" type of racer.

(yes first time I'm actually bashing Loeb, it was time uh ? ^^)


I can't believe that you criticize a rally driver for being the fastest.

Loeb just drives better than others at the moment...
1. he is driving straight, because it help's to come out of the corner faster plus braking in line is much more effective than braking in sideways and accelerating in sideways
2. straight driving decreases the risk of damages of the car and driving mistakes
3. it's not only about the car, that citroen is so good...in that case should sordo also be in top of others

it's not loeb's fault, that others can't compete him...and i think these are the pretty good reasons that loeb is with any car fast, not the nowdays regulations makes him fast. Just he's driving style is wiser than others.

[Helstar]

I can't believe that you criticize a rally driver for being the fastest.
That doesn't save him from being a boring driver to watch. Add to that his interviews of the last 8 years (boring 2, the revenge) + his latest moanings on the tyres cuts and you have the perfect target of whole WRC fans (except Loeb fans lol).
"Oh no we are not 100% safe !" then go to circuit racing or stay at home, oh wait he broke his arm last time, maybe he's right xD anyway .... if it's called RALLYING there's a reason you know Mr. Boring Bot ?!

Look at this video http://nettitv.mtv3.fi/maksuttomat/index.shtml/maksuttomat/ralli/ralli?127705#127705
About 26th minute.... THAT is rallying, PG Andersson rules ! (and Gigi ... *hides*)

http://img230.imageshack.us/img230/4682/vlcsnap515293bq0.png

[Brother John]

That doesn't save him from being a boring driver to watch. Add to that his interviews of the last 8 years (boring 2, the revenge) + his latest moanings on the tyres cuts and you have the perfect target of whole WRC fans (except Loeb fans lol).
"Oh no we are not 100% safe !" then go to circuit racing or stay at home, oh wait he broke his arm last time, maybe he's right xD anyway .... if it's called RALLYING there's a reason you know Mr. Boring Bot ?!
Look at this video http://nettitv.mtv3.fi/maksuttomat/index.shtml/maksuttomat/ralli/ralli?127705#127705
About 26th minute.... THAT is rallying, PG Andersson rules ! (and Gigi ... *hides*)

At least someone who know what is rally! :up: I agree again and it make me to laugh. :rotflmao: :s mokin:

[Daniel]

Perhaps you guys should watch synchronised swimming where points are given for how artistic someone is and leave rallying to people who want to watch rallying :)

[AndyRAC]

I’m sure we’d all like to see the cars driven sideways, but these modern cars have to be driven neat and tidy like race cars. Drive them sideways by all means, just don’t expect a fast time. It’s no good having a go at Loeb, if the fastest way was sliding it around corners then I’m sure he would do it. Blame the cars, tyres, technology.

[Daniel]

Ps. Yes Loeb can't go sideways. I mean: he avoids to ... because he is "oh no I will lose precious time on every corner plus destroy my tyres ... who cares about doing some show for people I only want to win" type of racer.

So Loeb should slow down and give others a chance to win and be more sideways? That's like telling your favourite football team to play worse so the other team can score more goals and make the game more interesting.

Rallying is a sport. Being a sport means that people try 100%. If you want to see people going sideways for fun go to your local rally where unskilled idiots with too much money throw their cars sideways and hope that they get around the corner. That or go and see some synchronised swimming ;)

[cosmicpanda]

That doesn't save him from being a boring driver to watch. Add to that his interviews of the last 8 years (boring 2, the revenge) + his latest moanings on the tyres cuts and you have the perfect target of whole WRC fans (except Loeb fans lol).
"Oh no we are not 100% safe !" then go to circuit racing or stay at home, oh wait he broke his arm last time, maybe he's right xD anyway .... if it's called RALLYING there's a reason you know Mr. Boring Bot ?!

I think you miss the point of rallying, which is, as Daniel said, a sport. It is not a competition of how sideways you can put a car through a corner. And it is sickening that you begrudge a braver man than you when he remarks that in his opinion, it would be safer with cuts. Do you not support safety? Do you want a repeat of Rally GB '05? Perhaps it should happen more often, to improve the show?

I'm not a massive Loeb fan (last year I supported Marcus) but I don't think that his style is boring. Last year in NZ he was the only driver to hit a bank on the Whaanga Coast that I saw. And, indeed, Marcus wasn't always spectacular, for example I remember Rally NZ '05 when he was just as train-style as Loeb.

And what is the sudden attitude against cuts? Were you arguing against them last year? Surely it can't be that much more expensive to have a technician cut a few bits off a tyre before they go out to the stages.

[Finni]

Last year I got impression that Marcus was driving even more straight manner than Loeb (after the new Focus came). Loeb on the contrary is sliding more with C4 than with the Xsara.

[AndyRAC]

I think you miss the point of rallying, which is, as Daniel said, a sport. It is not a competition of how sideways you can put a car through a corner. And it is sickening that you begrudge a braver man than you when he remarks that in his opinion, it would be safer with cuts. Do you not support safety? Do you want a repeat of Rally GB '05? Perhaps it should happen more often, to improve the show?

I'm not a massive Loeb fan (last year I supported Marcus) but I don't think that his style is boring. Last year in NZ he was the only driver to hit a bank on the Whaanga Coast that I saw. And, indeed, Marcus wasn't always spectacular, for example I remember Rally NZ '05 when he was just as train-style as Loeb.

And what is the sudden attitude against cuts? Were you arguing against them last year? Surely it can't be that much more expensive to have a technician cut a few bits off a tyre before they go out to the stages.

I’m not too sure what the problem with cutting is. I have heard that the cuts wouldn’t be the same for each tyre – and would be unfair to some drivers.
As for the other argument to drive slower – no chance – drivers aren’t going to go slower in case the opposition don’t.
So the Pirelli tyre used for Argentina will be used on the Acropolis?
Never have been and never will be in favour for control tyres.

[jparker]

Never have been and never will be in favour for control tyres.

me too

[ZequeArgentina]

Ok let's do a Citroen + Michelin championship then. All controlled by those you like... and you guys are happy !
Ps. Yes Loeb can't go sideways. I mean: he avoids to ... because he is "oh no I will lose precious time on every corner plus destroy my tyres ... who cares about doing some show for people I only want to win" type of racer.

(yes first time I'm actually bashing Loeb, it was time uh ? ^^)

If th fastest way to do a corner is not to slip, so a WRC shoudl not slip.
I am big fan of themost spectacular drivers (Colin, Galli, etc) but I have to recognize Loeb masters the rally world by own merits.Michlin favour him? may be, may be not, but with Pirelli he is still there.

A Sport is where the best one has his prize, that is what I want.

If Loeb, or Citroen, or his technicians, are the ones who best judge weather and road conditions, and cut preciselly what is need, I am fond that his gets his prize!!!

Do not get me wrong, I want more competition, I preffer Latvala to Loeb, but I want JM to beat him because he does everything better.

Knowing to take care of the car, and setting it up to the conditions is and should ever be part of the WRC.


Ahh, onmoe thing, Loeb goes sideways, specially when he is on a charge in gravel!!! (Not as sideways as JML for instance, but very nice to watch him live)

[Daniel]

I think you miss the point of rallying, which is, as Daniel said, a sport. It is not a competition of how sideways you can put a car through a corner. And it is sickening that you begrudge a braver man than you when he remarks that in his opinion, it would be safer with cuts. Do you not support safety? Do you want a repeat of Rally GB '05? Perhaps it should happen more often, to improve the show?

I think the last sentence very much puts things into perspective.....

[janvanvurpa]

Rallying is a sport. Being a sport means that people try 100%. If you want to see people going sideways for fun go to your local rally where unskilled idiots with too much money throw their cars sideways and hope that they get around the corner. That or go and see some synchronised swimming ;)

Daniel, don't know if I should even bother, but when you go and insult tens of thousands of people world wide doing local Club level rallys by calling them "unskilled idiots" without reservation, it seems a bit rich.

So first: For a few, it is a JOB. I presume you have one and if you are honest you will admit that we don't "Try 100%" at our jobs.

We do what is needed to do the job.

Ironically, it is always amateurs who spit up bilge about " I always go 100%!, no 109%, no wait....127%!!!"

But that's just a little thing.

What I want to know is why you Daniel from where ever living now in Wales has the balls to call everybody doing local level rallying "unskilled idiots"?

I know, especially since the arrival of fancy turbo 4wd cars in the GpA years, that EVERYWHERE has LOTS of unskilled, RICH idiots driving those GpA or GpN cars, but that deplorable trend extends all the way up right thru to the WRC.
So why the hate for club guys.
You know Daniel that not everybody doing local rallies are unskilled idiots, why the hate for the whole scene?

Could it be you were just shooting your mouth off like you tend to do too often?
Would you like to amend your statement with some qualifying phrases so it doesn't look like you are insulting everybody doing club rallies as unskilled idiots?
I mean you'll get no arguments that in many places that the top of Regional events but especially National Championship Events are infested with unskilled idiots whose primary skill is the ability to fund or find a budget, and to tow to events. And in many countries, particularly the USA, Canada, Australia, the huge distances adds BIG driving distances, sparse sponsorship opportunities and big TIME demands, it seems even moreso that there are many MANY unskilled---in driving---idiots, but they're at the so-called Top.

So you want to maybe apologize to all those people you've just insulted to make a point?

Or maybe you can tell us about your own exploits as a rally driver, or co-driver?

[Brother John]

We don´t talk about sideways driving! We talk about rally. If you want to see speed race go to circuit racing and dont call some rally drivers, unskilled idiots or synchronised swimming! Maybe you should leave rallying to people who want to watch rallying. Yes Rallying is a sport but not with race cars. :dozey:

[Daniel]

I didn't say all people on local rallies are unskilled idiots. Just that if you go to a local rally you're almost guaranteed to see a few of them. Wow seems you need to qualify every single thing in every single post these days :confused:

[Daniel]

We don´t talk about sideways driving! We talk about rally. If you want to see speed race go to circuit racing and dont call some rally drivers, unskilled idiots or synchronised swimming! Maybe you should leave rallying to people who want to watch rallying. Yes Rallying is a sport but not with race cars. :dozey:
You've hit the nail on the head. The cars have too much grip so it's fastest to drive them as straight as possible. Why blame Loeb for driving as fast as he can just because his style isn't as flamboyant as some others?

[janvanvurpa]

I didn't say all people on local rallies are unskilled idiots. Just that if you go to a local rally you're almost guaranteed to see a few of them. Wow seems you need to qualify every single thing in every single post these days :confused:


Is it so much trouble to think a second or two?
By not qualifying your statement, you did, intentionally or not, lump everybody at local rallies together as unskilled idiots, and I for one sure as hell don't want to be associated in any way with goons such as Ken Block which I see as the epitome of what is wrong with rally from bottom to top, while on the other hand, I would be proud to go toe to toe with the boys in Finland's F-Cup.

So you you really OUGHT TO qualify things when you slinging insults around, otherwise how are we supposed to know just who you're insulting?

And I just won a bet that you would not have the balls to apologize for speaking unthinkingly.

[Brother John]

You've hit the nail on the head. The cars have too much grip so it's fastest to drive them as straight as possible. Why blame Loeb for driving as fast as he can just because his style isn't as flamboyant as some others?

Daniel i don´t blame Loeb. He is the best in this type of cars.
Just want to see a difference between rally and race cars, which is everything i mean. If I saw how the shockabsorber of Hennings care came in front of the window!!! That is for me not a rallycar but a WTCC car. :s mokin:

[Helstar]

It's very good to see so many reactions, it's what I wanted ;)
And I got the replies I expected to receive ;p

Last thing I want to say. Why I worshipped Colin (fav driver of all time, like many others) and why Galli back in Mitsu/Pug307 times.

People bashed him for crashing too much or being too slow. They didn't understood his personality.
One of the few doing the show (as you clearly see from the video I posted in YouTube): times for him were secondary, first thing was having fun himself and giving fun to the public.
If you look at the fan club DVD, there is a logo which explains it all in the upper left side of the video.
Loeb is the opposite. And don't get me wrong, he likes to win and that's good for him and his fans. But think if there were 10+ Loebs in WRC. I wouldn't see it at all, and I wouldn't be alone.
Even his interviews are boring to hear (hundreds of times "It's looking good for us" O_o I can't hear that anymore lol).

See local rallying ? I already do ;p Targa Florio incoming btw ... Daniel you can gladly continue watching WRC (the timesheets mainly - but only when Loeb wins, otherwise you get depressed xD), everybody has their own preferences.

[leno]

It's very good to see so many reactions, it's what I wanted ;)
And I got the replies I expected to receive ;p

Last thing I want to say. Why I worshipped Colin (fav driver of all time, like many others) and why Galli back in Mitsu/Pug307 times.

People bashed him for crashing too much or being too slow. They didn't understood his personality.
One of the few doing the show (as you clearly see from the video I posted in YouTube): times for him were secondary, first thing was having fun himself and giving fun to the public.
If you look at the fan club DVD, there is a logo which explains it all in the upper left side of the video.
Loeb is the opposite. And don't get me wrong, he likes to win and that's good for him and his fans. But think if there were 10+ Loebs in WRC. I wouldn't see it at all, and I wouldn't be alone.
Even his interviews are boring to hear (hundreds of times "It's looking good for us" O_o I can't hear that anymore lol).

See local rallying ? I already do ;p Targa Florio incoming btw ... Daniel you can gladly continue watching WRC (the timesheets mainly - but only when Loeb wins, otherwise you get depressed xD), everybody has their own preferences.


I totally agree

[cosmicpanda]

It's very good to see so many reactions, it's what I wanted ;)
And I got the replies I expected to receive ;p

I hope you're proud of yourself.

[ShiftingGears]

Don't hate the player, hate the game ;)

[Daniel]

Is it so much trouble to think a second or two?
By not qualifying your statement, you did, intentionally or not, lump everybody at local rallies together as unskilled idiots, and I for one sure as hell don't want to be associated in any way with goons such as Ken Block which I see as the epitome of what is wrong with rally from bottom to top, while on the other hand, I would be proud to go toe to toe with the boys in Finland's F-Cup.

So you you really OUGHT TO qualify things when you slinging insults around, otherwise how are we supposed to know just who you're insulting?

And I just won a bet that you would not have the balls to apologize for speaking unthinkingly.
Did you get out of bed on the wrong side or something? :confused:

Make of my words what you want but if I didn't say it then quit your whining.

[Helstar]

I hope you're proud of yourself.
You know, this forum was starting to be boring like the one you know... now go back seeing your beloved drivers' championship standing, I watch some Immortal Champion Colin's videos :)

[Daniel]

Oh come on Helstar. Why are you on this forum if you find the WRC boring? There is always synchronised you know.

[Helstar]

You replied by yourself, infact I'm trying to spice it up :p

[gloomyDAY]

Oh come on Helstar. Why are you on this forum if you find the WRC boring? There is always synchronised you know.Helstar brings up a great point.

There should be changes if spectators are left yawning and "hardcore" rally fans begin to roll their eyes. Example? Predicatble results at just about every event and silly rules (Super Rally) that make things discombobulated.

[Daniel]

Helstar brings up a great point.

There should be changes if spectators are left yawning and "hardcore" rally fans begin to roll their eyes. Example? Predicatble results at just about every event and silly rules (Super Rally) that make things discombobulated.


Of course BUT it's not Sebastien's fault that there seem to be no drivers that can really compete with him since Gronholm's retirement? Is it his fault that Citroen seem to prepare the best cars for just about each event? StupidRally is dumb. But this has nothing to do with Sebastien.

I like sidways as much as most others. But I don't see the point in sideways for the sake of sideways. The only reason Sebastien isn't crazy sideways all the time is that with the way the current cars are it's simply not the fast way through the stage. I'm sure if Sebastien had been around in the WRC 5-10 years earlier you'd have seen some very sideways and very fast driving from him. He's simply driving as skillfully as he can do and if that isn't exciting to watch then I'm sure you could go to a local rally where (disclaimer alert!!!!) most people are very skilled drivers and aren't idiots but on rare occasions one might by chance see an unskilled idiot who I MUST stress is not the norm on the type of event driving stupidly sideways.

I do hope that S2000+ brings some sideways action but I doubt it.......

[BDunnell]

I don't remember being bothered about this sort of thing when I was getting into rallying in the early 1980s, because almost everything used to be spectacular to watch due to being 2wd, while the Quattro was impressive and could be driven spectacularly.

Surely Loeb must be doing something right given his results? I agree that he is unspectacular, but so what? He is 'merely' doing the best job he can in the current type of equipment. When the nature of that equipment changes, he may have to alter his style.

The idea that those of us who want to see cars looking more like they're being pushed hard than is currently the case want to see more accidents is really absurd. To me, the sight of today's WRCs looking like they're running on rails just isn't impressive and doesn't make for good sport either.

[malscar]

I like sidways as much as most others. But I don't see the point in sideways for the sake of sideways. The only reason Sebastien isn't crazy sideways all the time is that with the way the current cars are it's simply not the fast way through the stage.

What has not been said is that it is not required to attack corners sideways when you have already driven the stage a number of times and made copious notes.

Secondly, just how many cars in top level rallying are rear wheel drive. The Quattro came into being only 26(?) years ago and the 4WD rally cars took quite a while to become what they are today.

Years ago the rally route was secret. Route instructions were not handed out until just before the start. Having the car unbalanced as you approached the corner allowed a bit of a safety margin. Change of direction was a lot easier using both steering input and throttle control. Unfortunately the down side was that locals had a advantage and being secret did throw up the safety factor in that you did not know what was around the corner.

Yes the Citroen is probably the best car out there, Seb has mastered it, however when someone manages to push him, he does make mistakes. Last year the Focus was the best car for most of the year until the C4 was fully developed. This year I believe they are still very close, just the drivers are not as good.

Latvala is still learning and unfortunately I don't think Miko is a number 1 driver yet. I would love to see Petter, Atko and Latvala all in the C4 to see just how close they are to Seb. Give them a few rallies in it before making judgement.

[Daniel]

I don't remember being bothered about this sort of thing when I was getting into rallying in the early 1980s, because almost everything used to be spectacular to watch due to being 2wd, while the Quattro was impressive and could be driven spectacularly.

Surely Loeb must be doing something right given his results? I agree that he is unspectacular, but so what? He is 'merely' doing the best job he can in the current type of equipment. When the nature of that equipment changes, he may have to alter his style.

The idea that those of us who want to see cars looking more like they're being pushed hard than is currently the case want to see more accidents is really absurd. To me, the sight of today's WRCs looking like they're running on rails just isn't impressive and doesn't make for good sport either.

I think the point that was made with accidents was a valid one. If as Loeb said it was dangerous then perhaps we should respect the opinion of someone as experienced as him and think that perhaps not cutting the tyres just makes things more dangerous and just makes for slower rallying.

As I say all the time something needs to be done to make the cars worth driving sideways in terms of results. If it's quickest to drive straight it'll be driven straight..... I don't think many will disagree with this.

[Daniel]

What has not been said is that it is not required to attack corners sideways when you have already driven the stage a number of times and made copious notes.

Years ago the rally route was secret. Route instructions were not handed out until just before the start. Having the car unbalanced as you approached the corner allowed a bit of a safety margin. Change of direction was a lot easier using both steering input and throttle control. Unfortunately the down side was that locals had a advantage and being secret did throw up the safety factor in that you did not know what was around the corner.

True. Not bad ideas it has to be said....

[cosmicpanda]

Helstar brings up a great point.

There should be changes if spectators are left yawning and "hardcore" rally fans begin to roll their eyes. Example? Predicatble results at just about every event and silly rules (Super Rally) that make things discombobulated.

How predictable is it really? Are you that good at pickems? OK, Loeb usually wins, but 2nd position down is usually pretty unpredictable, and nobody predicted what happened in Argentina. Can you predict for me the winner of Rally Finland? Will Loeb finally win there? :)


most people are very skilled drivers and aren't idiots but on rare occasions one might by chance see an unskilled idiot who I MUST stress is not the norm on the type of event driving stupidly sideways.

Rossi at Rally NZ '06 was stupidly sideways.

[Daniel]

How predictable is it really? Are you that good at pickems? OK, Loeb usually wins, but 2nd position down is usually pretty unpredictable, and nobody predicted what happened in Argentina. Can you predict for me the winner of Rally Finland? Will Loeb finally win there? :)



Rossi at Rally NZ '06 was stupidly sideways.
Just make sure you point out the fact that he's not stupidly sideways when on a bike. Don't want the perfect statement police on your back now ;)

[tmx]

Can you predict for me the winner of Rally Finland? Will Loeb finally win there? :)
no, but also no.

[Kaps]

I can't believe I have to ask this here, but since offically nothing was published, here goes; does anyone know reasons for retirements of H. Solberg, L. Perez Companc & T. Gardemeister on 2008 Rally Argentina? (Yes, the one that finished less than a week ago).

Thank you.

[tmx]

henning broke the suspension twice in two different days, in the same front right wheel, so he had to stop in the stage, not far from where his brother also retired.

toni has some kind of hydraulic pressure, not sure.

companc went off the road, not sure where.

[gloomyDAY]

Of course BUT it's not Sebastien's fault that there seem to be no drivers that can really compete with him since Gronholm's retirement? Is it his fault that Citroen seem to prepare the best cars for just about each event? StupidRally is dumb. But this has nothing to do with Sebastien.No, I'm not blaming Seb for being an outstanding driver. His skill is just on a completely different level than the rest of the drivers. I guess my post was more of a complaint because the course of WRC is frustrating me at the moment.

I also cannot predict what will happen in future since my crystal ball is out of commission. All I can do is hope that Max steps down and someone is placed in the FIA who will change the WRC for the better.

[SubaruNorway]

I can't believe I have to ask this here, but since offically nothing was published, here goes; does anyone know reasons for retirements of H. Solberg, L. Perez Companc & T. Gardemeister on 2008 Rally Argentina? (Yes, the one that finished less than a week ago).

Thank you.

Watch the videos on wrc.com and atleast you'Il find out what hapend to Henning

[AndyRAC]

No, I'm not blaming Seb for being an outstanding driver. His skill is just on a completely different level than the rest of the drivers. I guess my post was more of a complaint because the course of WRC is frustrating me at the moment.

I also cannot predict what will happen in future since my crystal ball is out of commission. All I can do is hope that Max steps down and someone is placed in the FIA who will change the WRC for the better.

Talking of Max and the FIA, have any of the teams made any comments regarding his position? If not, I presume they don't have a problem with him.

[MJW]

Talking of Max and the FIA, have any of the teams made any comments regarding his position? If not, I presume they don't have a problem with him.
I dont think any of the WRC teams or wrc commission are brave enough or stupid enough to comment on Max. See what he is capable of http://www.sportspromedia.com/mosley.htm

[SubaruNorway]

Talking of Max and the FIA, have any of the teams made any comments regarding his position? If not, I presume they don't have a problem with him.

Four of the F1 teams have according to Norwegian media atleast, and they were in discrace of what he had done.

[cosmicpanda]

No, I'm not blaming Seb for being an outstanding driver. His skill is just on a completely different level than the rest of the drivers. I guess my post was more of a complaint because the course of WRC is frustrating me at the moment.

I also cannot predict what will happen in future since my crystal ball is out of commission. All I can do is hope that Max steps down and someone is placed in the FIA who will change the WRC for the better.

You agree that you cannot predict the future, and therefore the WRC must be unpredictable, no?

Perhaps the idea of how to change the WRC for the better needs (yet) another thread.


Just make sure you point out the fact that he's not stupidly sideways when on a bike. Don't want the perfect statement police on your back now ;)

But Rossi wasn't on a bike :p

[Daniel]

True but you don't want to insult anyone who might not understand your post properly.

[janvanvurpa]

True but you don't want to insult anyone who might not understand your post properly.

your statement said, with no qualifiers, if you want to see talentless idiots go to local events.

If you had any balls at all you would concede that it was a thoughtless statement, particularly when you are, as far as I can tell, a mere fan-boy Inter-net guy ( Danie Status: Online Posts: 26,758) and no sort of competitor.

Instead you act like an immature prat.

Nobody expects perfection here, but when its pointed out that you intentionally or not, insulted tens of thousands of club level competitors, and that includes ME, just to make a point, a simpler solution to your speaking before thinking would have been to say, Oh sh1t, sorry, no offense to everybody in the club rally scene.."

But no, you continue to make silly references to your thoughtless statements.

What a obnoxious punk.

[Daniel]

your statement said, with no qualifiers, if you want to see talentless idiots go to local events.

If you had any balls at all you would concede that it was a thoughtless statement, particularly when you are, as far as I can tell, a mere fan-boy Inter-net guy ( Danie Status: Online Posts: 26,758) and no sort of competitor.

Instead you act like an immature prat.

Nobody expects perfection here, but when its pointed out that you intentionally or not, insulted tens of thousands of club level competitors, and that includes ME, just to make a point, a simpler solution to your speaking before thinking would have been to say, Oh sh1t, sorry, no offense to everybody in the club rally scene.."

But no, you continue to make silly references to your thoughtless statements.

What a obnoxious punk.
This isn't about guts. It's about not seeing things which aren't there.

If I said "If you want to see corrupt tosspots go to capitol hill" you wouldn't be having such a big hissy fit. The fact of the matter is there are corrupt politicians so the above statement is correct and isn't all encompassing. The fact of the matter is that there are talentless idiots at club level and higher for the matter and there are some really good drivers. I was merely pointing out that turning up to a low level event is generally going to satisfy your appetite for seeing someone going stupidly sideways more than turning up to a WRC event will.

I really don't care if tens of thousands of club level competitors are insulted. If they are insulted by what someone by what someone with 26,759 posts on an internet forum says then they need to find a new hobby and practice it in private. May I suggest cross stitch and not getting Rupert Murdoch angry as two hobbies which will be easy and not involve actually being insulted?

[Kaps]

henning broke the suspension twice in two different days, in the same front right wheel, so he had to stop in the stage, not far from where his brother also retired.

toni has some kind of hydraulic pressure, not sure.

companc went off the road, not sure where.

Thanks tmx!

[gloomyDAY]

You agree that you cannot predict the future, and therefore the WRC must be unpredictable, no?
I may sound as if I'm contradicting myself, but I think Argentina was a one-off. Rally Jordan might be more of what we expected in the results category.

[cosmicpanda]

I may sound as if I'm contradicting myself, but I think Argentina was a one-off. Rally Jordan might be more of what we expected in the results category.

Which is what, precisely? :)

[duff]

This isn't about guts. It's about not seeing things which aren't there.

If I said "If you want to see corrupt tosspots go to capitol hill" you wouldn't be having such a big hissy fit. The fact of the matter is there are corrupt politicians so the above statement is correct and isn't all encompassing. The fact of the matter is that there are talentless idiots at club level and higher for the matter and there are some really good drivers. I was merely pointing out that turning up to a low level event is generally going to satisfy your appetite for seeing someone going stupidly sideways more than turning up to a WRC event will.

I really don't care if tens of thousands of club level competitors are insulted. If they are insulted by what someone by what someone with 26,759 posts on an internet forum says then they need to find a new hobby and practice it in private. May I suggest cross stitch and not getting Rupert Murdoch angry as two hobbies which will be easy and not involve actually being insulted?


I say this as an observer with no vested interest in this argument:

Daniel, sometimes it’s better to apologize and admit that you were wrong instead of incessantly trying to justify your point and therefore making it worse. Yes Daniel - even you can be in the wrong at times...

[bowler]

Daniel when you are already in a hole, stop digging.

[sollitt]

The fact of the matter is that there are talentless idiots at club level and higher ...
No there aren't. There are competitors with varying degrees of experience and ability ... as there are in any sport. Many will actually admit to being 'learners' or to just having fun without great expectations.
To describe them in the manner that you have actually tells us more about you than it does about those to whom you're referring.


I really don't care if tens of thousands of club level competitors are insulted.
I think we've all learnt over the years that, where you're concerned, this goes without saying. Why it is that you, who has no involvement in the sport, continually feels the need to insult those who do is beyond comprehension.

I'm with Janvanvurpa here. His description of you is insightful, accurate, spot on. A display of exquisite character judgement. I could not have chosen more apt words myself.

[Helstar]

World vs Daniel :\
Poor Daniel he doesn't deserve all of this. He is not Loeb himself xD only a 'two eyed' fan who just sees the french BB as 'the unique and real rally driver of all time' (past present and future lol).

But anyway it's true that sometimes he gets over the limit, I remember one time he claimed to be the right one in a discussion against....Pentti ^^

[L5->R5/CR]

This isn't about guts. It's about not seeing things which aren't there.

If I said "If you want to see corrupt tosspots go to capitol hill" you wouldn't be having such a big hissy fit. The fact of the matter is there are corrupt politicians so the above statement is correct and isn't all encompassing. The fact of the matter is that there are talentless idiots at club level and higher for the matter and there are some really good drivers. I was merely pointing out that turning up to a low level event is generally going to satisfy your appetite for seeing someone going stupidly sideways more than turning up to a WRC event will.

I really don't care if tens of thousands of club level competitors are insulted. If they are insulted by what someone by what someone with 26,759 posts on an internet forum says then they need to find a new hobby and practice it in private. May I suggest cross stitch and not getting Rupert Murdoch angry as two hobbies which will be easy and not involve actually being insulted?



I was going to stay out of this, but really, the last paragraph was too much.

Get a grip. Maybe you should respect the fact that the sport of rally, more so than any other form of motorsport in the world, is supported by, built on, and dependent on the club level competitor. If you don't care what club level competitors think, what they do, or if you blatantly disregard and offend them then perhaps it is time for you to get off your "high and mighty keyboard" and get truly involved in the sport.

To not even understand how what you might have said was wrong and in bad taste reflects immensely and poorly on you and your character.

Perhaps, as the saying goes, you can't see the forest for the trees....

[Daniel]

I say this as an observer with no vested interest in this argument:

Daniel, sometimes it’s better to apologize and admit that you were wrong instead of incessantly trying to justify your point and therefore making it worse. Yes Daniel - even you can be in the wrong at times...

Thing is if I'd said that all people involved in club rallying were talentless idiots I'd be the first to say "whoops! that was a dumb thing to say!" but I didn't. I myself have friends who have competed at a club level for years and I've been part of their service crew. I'd happily service for my friend again if he was still competing and I lived in the same country as him but sadly neither of those is true. I wonder how many people on the WRC forum and in particular people around my age have had any level of involvement past spectating at events? Does that fact that I have had some involvement make me better or more able to comprehend English than them? Not really. I respect people who rally at a club level. I was just pointing out that if you go to a club rally with over 100 competitiors you will see a few talentless people who want nothing more than to go sideways. If that's their goal then that's great and I wish them the best in going as sideways as they like. But that doesn't change the fact that they're not all that skillful and that they'll satisfy your urge for stupidly sideways action moreso than seeing Sebastien or someone similarly skilled in a top car which doesn't reward especially sideways driving.

What's happened here is classic misinterpretation. I've done it myself a few times too. Read what I wanted to read in someone's post and then shot my mouth off. We all have at some point in the past. But as soon as the person says "that's not what I said/meant" I accept that I'm in the wrong (as JanVan and Solitt are here) and apologise.

As a sidenote if I was having this argument with my girlfriend I'd happily apologise for a misunderstanding because I love her and value her opinions and one silly argument is nothing to break up over. Just for the record neither JanVan or Solitt are my girlfriend so their apology might be a while forthcoming.......

:wave:

[Daniel]

I was going to stay out of this, but really, the last paragraph was too much.

Get a grip. Maybe you should respect the fact that the sport of rally, more so than any other form of motorsport in the world, is supported by, built on, and dependent on the club level competitor. If you don't care what club level competitors think, what they do, or if you blatantly disregard and offend them then perhaps it is time for you to get off your "high and mighty keyboard" and get truly involved in the sport.

To not even understand how what you might have said was wrong and in bad taste reflects immensely and poorly on you and your character.

Perhaps, as the saying goes, you can't see the forest for the trees....

Thing is.... if I replied to you now saying you've offended the name of Portugal with a comment that doesn't actually mean what I claim it does then would you "care" about it considering the fact that I'm the one making it an insult and not you? If people want to interpret things that's fine. But you have to understand that the person who said them or typed them had their own intentions for those words and you have to accept that and not force them to admit to saying something that you want them to have said.

[ozrevhead]

Everyone's entitled to opinion - whether you agree with it is up to you. No one should have to apologise if they dont feel they have to.

Personally I dont agree with what Daniel is saying but I will sure as hell defend his right to say it

[L5->R5/CR]

Thing is.... if I replied to you now saying you've offended the name of Portugal with a comment that doesn't actually mean what I claim it does then would you "care" about it considering the fact that I'm the one making it an insult and not you? If people want to interpret things that's fine. But you have to understand that the person who said them or typed them had their own intentions for those words and you have to accept that and not force them to admit to saying something that you want them to have said.



No Daniel.

First of all, I didn't say anything about Portugal.

You said: If you want to see people going sideways for fun go to your local rally where unskilled idiots with too much money throw their cars sideways and hope that they get around the corner.

You can twist others words to defend what you believe to be your point but that doesn't change matters.

You made a broad and condescending, if not insulting, comment. Additionally, you didn't do it in spoken word, where one's intent can be communicated in a broader sense; you did it in the written word, where your audience can only take you for exactly what you have written. If you cannot understand the difference in that then I have no further words for you.

Obviously, as you have elaborated as this discussion has dragged on, you meant more than your initial comment would reflect. Where is the harm in simply saying "I should have been more direct or specific". Or simply stating, "you know, I didn't make my point clearly". Like it or not, what you communicate, is not a product of your intent or attempt, but what your audience understands and perceives. No matter how diligently you defend "what" you said, it only matters what your audience "heard".