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Thread: Of customer cars & B-teams
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24th November 2008, 16:03 #1
Of customer cars & B-teams
Suppose you had the money & entered two F1 teams under separate managements but with a common design bureau could (in theory) supply the same chassis & even the same engine. The question is, if STR (formerly Minardi) didn't follow this arrangement would it still exist today? Likewise, the short-lived Super Aguri used a copy of the Honda RA106 (dubbed SA07), that at times proved ironically faster than the 2007's RA107. If anything the SA07 could probably have scored more points had the management been up to the face.
Of course, the real solution lies in being able to field some of the world's leading automobile manufacturers to enroll. Don't F1 fans want to see Porsche? Aston Martin? A Lotus revival? How about Mitsubishi or Hyundai? Why not Ford or Northstar (Cadilac)?
Yet why not experiment with the idea of a 'B-team' that doubles as a customer team for the purpose of 'making the numbers' in F1? Surely 22, 24 or 28 cars are better than 20 or 18 or even 16.
My proposition is likeso:
- The team must make a commitment towards becoming a fully fledged constructor team & that its 'customer car' status is intended to gain know-how from its 'senior' team.[/*:m:2o1zkf3j]
- No senior team may have more than one 'customer' team.[/*:m:2o1zkf3j]
- A 'customer car' may not be a kit-car, but must be manufactured (with the exception of the engine, transmission & KERS)[/*:m:2o1zkf3j]
- In the first year, a 'customer car' operator may not acquire a new design but a year-old design.[/*:m:2o1zkf3j]
- The team is a 'B-team' it is allowed to share technical information & documentation with the 'A-team' so long as this collaboration meets a fixed timespan that may not exceed three seasons.[/*:m:2o1zkf3j]
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24th November 2008, 17:06 #2
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Blimey TallG, has your Internet link been severed for the past 12 months or something and you've been saving all these ideas up
1. What if they don't manage it?
2. With the current FIA initiatives, this makes no sense.
3. It would have to pass FIA regulations and crash tests.
4. Why? What purpose would it serve?
5. Then what. The team winds up or sells on to another owner and renews the original agreement?
All seems a bit convoluted to me (but then, most things do) .
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24th November 2008, 17:32 #3Originally Posted by Knock-on
Anyway the teams SHOULD manage it, but assistance is always helpful in jump-starting a team. Gone are the days when you could build a competitive car in a garage. The point is, they have to sign in as long-term participants save for any unforeseen circumstances.
No senior team may have more than one 'customer' team.
2. With the current FIA initiatives, this makes no sense.
A 'customer car' may not be a kit-car, but must be manufactured (with the exception of the engine, transmission & KERS)
3. It would have to pass FIA regulations and crash tests.
In the first year, a 'customer car' operator may not acquire a new design but a year-old design.
4. Why? What purpose would it serve?
The team is a 'B-team' it is allowed to share technical information & documentation with the 'A-team' so long as this collaboration meets a fixed timespan that may not exceed three seasons.
5. Then what. The team winds up or sells on to another owner and renews the original agreement?
An independent entrant is always risky affair.
All seems a bit convoluted to me (but then, most things do) .
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27th November 2008, 10:21 #4
One thing we must all be aware of that according to the rules, a team (constructor) must design+manufacture their vehicles with optional items being the engine+transmission system. No rule however states that you can't source a third party for parts & components, & indeed, a majority of teams have multiple suppliers of everything from nuts & bolts all the way up. The important thing is that they manufacture (construct or assemble) a car of their design.
I think that the rules should be relaxed on the 'design' part for customer teams but maintained for 'manufacture' as every team must commit that it intends to become a manufacturer & (just as importantly) designer of their own chassis.
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27th November 2008, 21:24 #5
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Originally Posted by Tallgeese
Good Luck!!When in doubt, run in circles, scream and shout
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27th November 2008, 23:36 #6
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I on the whole would welcome the idea of allowing teams to run anohter manufacturers machinery (they used to do it in the 1950's and 60's, why not now).
But (you may think i've done a Bernie here) i would allow it under certain conditions
Teams that run customer cars...
1. Would only be allowed to run ONE car
2. Manufacturer teams may only sell a car/give assistance to ONE customer team (e.g. only one team could run a Ferrari, one team to run a McLaren etc.)
3. Would be ineligible for world championship honours, instead competing in an independents category which would create interest further down the field
4. "Customer" teams would not be allowed to use a driver currently employed as another team's test driver
5. "Customer" teams would only be allowed to run an independent entry on the promise they begin to build and enter their own cars after a certain period.
It may look daft, but this would at least get grid sizes up to around the 26 car area"Alboreto, into the pits, and im going to stop the startwatch" (Murray Walker, Monaco 1987)
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28th November 2008, 01:22 #7
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Originally Posted by DazzlaF1When in doubt, run in circles, scream and shout
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28th November 2008, 08:50 #8
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Originally Posted by Tallgeese
The manufacturers are there because some marketing expert has told them that success in F1 will buy them $x million worth of good publicity and help sell y% extra cars a year.
The problem is, as soon as they think it's served it's purpose in marketing terms and they'll get a better return from something else, or worse, as soon as the chairman, or a politician questions why when they've just closed two factories and sacked 5000 workers to save money, they're still spending a few billion a year on F1, they'll drop it like a bad smell....
Looking at the economic situation right now, how confident are you that every single manufacturer currently in F1 will still be there in 2-3 years time?
F1's problem is that as the manufacturers have come in, then they've raised the bar on what's needed to be competitive beyond what an independent team can realistically hope for- we've seen that happen in other areas of motorsport (sportscars, touring cars), and it always seems to follow the same cycle- Manufacturers come in, privateers are driven out, manufacturers leave, grid sizes implode....
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30th November 2008, 21:57 #9Originally Posted by Valve Bounce
Simply put, you have the facilities to 'design & build' a car, but with lack of experience & so on they'll end up spending lots of money to learn to reinvent the wheel & it could take years & years to catch up. My proposition is that a new entrant has the right to 'partner' as a B-team of any established constructor they choose, & to acquire a year-old chassis that they must build themselves. Only the whole drivetrain (engine+transmission+KERS) are to be acquired.
Until the team acquires a capability to design & build their own original chassis & ultimately manage their own team then it's time to 'go it alone' & so on.
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30th November 2008, 23:34 #10
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Originally Posted by Tallgeese
What would be the benefit of running a team under such conditions? Who the hell would want to chuck gazillions away for what?? It would be easier to just give the money away to the Salvos - at least it will do some good there.When in doubt, run in circles, scream and shout
Scenery is nice, but Rally2's on these type of roads aren't that interesting to watch at least
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