Just how good is Stoner?

[maxu05]

Yeah right. Bye, please don't let the door hit you on the way out.

[F1boat]

I like Casey. I think that he is better than Pedrosa and about Lorenzo, we'll see. He's too wild IMO.
I also like Casey's personality and way of winning. Vale's way is annoying to me. Casey loooks like dominator, on and off track. He is great.
The bike argument is laughable. Ask Marco Melandri.

[MrJan]

I don't think John was condescending. Everyone gets along alright on the bike forum, which I think most of us are fairly proud about. If anything your assumption that you know more about racing than any of us is the condescending (and arrogant) comment.

You say you know more about racing than most but seem to have a view that is different from pretty much everyone else involved in the sport. Stoner is undoubtedly a quick rider. He has absolutely walked the last two GPs whilst good riders on the same bike have struggled. Whilst you could attribute Assen to the Dukes speed advantage (which I think speed traps will tell you is not as big as it was), Donnington is not a straightline track.

In fact at high speed tracks like Catalunya and Estoril he has struggled. At Shanghai and PortugalRossi was only 3 kph off the Ducatis. Sorry but that small speed advantage cannot account for such a gap.

[MrJan]

Yeah right. Bye, please don't let the door hit you on the way out.

Yeah, we don't want to chip the paint

[maxu05]

Facts from official Moto GP site.......................................

"With a background in Australian dirt-track, Stoner boldly moved to Europe as a teenager, where he shone on a 125cc machine in the UK and Spain. A five-year rise into MotoGP saw two 125cc wins and five 250cc successes, and he even managed a podium result with 2nd place on only his third MotoGP outing in 2006.

After only two years Stoner is already the 5th best performer ever in MotoGP in terms of appearances and victories. Only four other riders have won 8 or more premier-class races in a single season - Mick Doohan, Giacomo Agostini, Valentino Rossi and Mike Hailwood.
Stoner is the second youngest rider to win the premier class title after 1983 Champion Freddie Spencer. His debut win in Qatar in 2007 made him the first Australian rider to win in all three current GP classes."


His history speaks for itself. This is racing at its finest so sit back and enjoy.

[gco0307]

Not sure what you are smoking, you sure are not reading what I have said. The fact is I have an opinion, like anybody else, I also guarantee that I know more about racing than most here.

Mate, with respects.

When you go making a statement like 'I also guarantee that I know more about racing than most here' I sure do hope you can back it up if asked. So, before I answer I will say where I am coming from, so that you may (or may not) understand.

Have been following racing for 25 or so years and worked numerous race meetings throughout Australia for a few years now. Have a number of personal friends and acquantainces who have worked in all forms of racing internationally from officials, through riders, through to team members. This has given me an insight into the racing scene but I can guarantee you taht there are many in this forum and other places that have far more knowledge that I do. So that out of the way, into my comments.

You have every right to believe the way you do, it is after all you opinion but do not be surprised if people as you to back it up and times anmd/or explain in a different manner to make your thoughts more understood.

I see that for one, you obviously do not rate Casey Stoner to highly by comparison to Jorge Lorenzo (JL) or Dani Pedrosa (DP) when talk of sheer abilities is discussed. As a comparison, in the 2005 250cc championship woin by DP with 309 points (won 8 races), CS finished second on 254 points (won 5 races) and JL fith on 167 (no wins but 4 seconds). That year saw CS as the only non Honda in the top 4 which would indicate that teh Honda had the better bike, or riders (individual take on that one).

In 2004, DP won the world 250cc title with 317 points and 7 race wins. That year CS and JL both competed in the 125cc with JL fourth on 179 points (3 wins, 5 dnf) to CS in fith on 145 points (1 win, 7 dnf's). In the case of 2004, JL slightly shaded CS and neither can be compared to DP.

Now, lets looks at 2006 (leaving JL out as he was not in MotoGP).

DP was signed by teh Respol Honda factory team, one of the more sought after positions in the paddock whilst CS entered MotpGP with LCR to ride a satellite Honda. It is commonly accepoted (and acknowledged world wide) that the satellite bikes are not the equal of the factory bikes, nor do they receive the same support or equipment from other suppliers.

In 2006 Dani finished fifth in his rookie year, a tremendous result with 2 wins and 2 seconds (2 dnf), whilst Casey finished 8th with a second as his best result (7 dnf). Certainly on results one could suggest that DP was superior in 2006, although I would argue that when the teams and equipment levels are weighted the season of CS was impressive.

In that rookie year CS finished in front of established riders (in descending order from 9th) Hopkins, Vermuelen, Tamada, Gibernau, Nakano, Chea and others.

In my opinion, CS' first year showed that the guy has the ability necessary to master the larger capacity machine.

To date in the premier class it is fair to say that CS has the better reults of both DP and JL but all are in the early stages of their careers and without doubt all will continue to learn and improve. It will be clearer to all in 5 or so years where these three riders sit in terms of championships and also how history will judge them.

For me, CS is at this stage the better or the listed three in the MotoGP class, although I must say that Lorenzo has really impressed (IMO, far more so than DP).






Garry

[patnicholls]

Not sure what you are smoking, you sure are not reading what I have said. The fact is I have an opinion, like anybody else, I also guarantee that I know more about racing than most here. You ask me to back up my opinion, yet the person who started this topic, had the opinion, that Stoner was the second coming, without backing it up. As for your condescending attitude, please keep it to yourself.

Hello.

Welcome to the forums.

You might want to try being on here for more than five days before you decide to slag off people who have been on here for years and are well-known and respected amongst these parts. ("I also guarantee that I know more about racing than most on here" - way to endear yourself, I don't think)

As for your posts - yep, Vale is definitely in the twilight of his career. Except that it's been a good twilight as he was leading the championship before Assen with a few wins, and is just 4 points behind at present. Not to mention the seven titles beforehand, as Jan mentioned.

No-one's saying Dani, Jorge, or Casey are rubbish - far from it as already mentioned. Indeed, the starter of this thread was posing the question as to how good Casey is.

[DezinerPaul]

Mate, with respects.

When you go making a statement like 'I also guarantee that I know more about racing than most here' I sure do hope you can back it up if asked. So, before I answer I will say where I am coming from, so that you may (or may not) understand.

Have been following racing for 25 or so years and worked numerous race meetings throughout Australia for a few years now. Have a number of personal friends and acquantainces who have worked in all forms of racing internationally from officials, through riders, through to team members. This has given me an insight into the racing scene but I can guarantee you taht there are many in this forum and other places that have far more knowledge that I do. So that out of the way, into my comments.

You have every right to believe the way you do, it is after all you opinion but do not be surprised if people as you to back it up and times anmd/or explain in a different manner to make your thoughts more understood.

I see that for one, you obviously do not rate Casey Stoner to highly by comparison to Jorge Lorenzo (JL) or Dani Pedrosa (DP) when talk of sheer abilities is discussed. As a comparison, in the 2005 250cc championship woin by DP with 309 points (won 8 races), CS finished second on 254 points (won 5 races) and JL fith on 167 (no wins but 4 seconds). That year saw CS as the only non Honda in the top 4 which would indicate that teh Honda had the better bike, or riders (individual take on that one).

In 2004, DP won the world 250cc title with 317 points and 7 race wins. That year CS and JL both competed in the 125cc with JL fourth on 179 points (3 wins, 5 dnf) to CS in fith on 145 points (1 win, 7 dnf's). In the case of 2004, JL slightly shaded CS and neither can be compared to DP.

Now, lets looks at 2006 (leaving JL out as he was not in MotoGP).

DP was signed by teh Respol Honda factory team, one of the more sought after positions in the paddock whilst CS entered MotpGP with LCR to ride a satellite Honda. It is commonly accepoted (and acknowledged world wide) that the satellite bikes are not the equal of the factory bikes, nor do they receive the same support or equipment from other suppliers.

In 2006 Dani finished fifth in his rookie year, a tremendous result with 2 wins and 2 seconds (2 dnf), whilst Casey finished 8th with a second as his best result (7 dnf). Certainly on results one could suggest that DP was superior in 2006, although I would argue that when the teams and equipment levels are weighted the season of CS was impressive.

In that rookie year CS finished in front of established riders (in descending order from 9th) Hopkins, Vermuelen, Tamada, Gibernau, Nakano, Chea and others.

In my opinion, CS' first year showed that the guy has the ability necessary to master the larger capacity machine.

To date in the premier class it is fair to say that CS has the better reults of both DP and JL but all are in the early stages of their careers and without doubt all will continue to learn and improve. It will be clearer to all in 5 or so years where these three riders sit in terms of championships and also how history will judge them.

For me, CS is at this stage the better or the listed three in the MotoGP class, although I must say that Lorenzo has really impressed (IMO, far more so than DP).






Garry

Nice post, I agree with a lot that you said. Same two points though, Casey has never dominated, before the Duc, his KTM was clearly the class of the field in it's last season, it was him that blew a title chance, not the bike.
To say at this point, that he is the second coming is doing a huge injustice , to the real greats, Micky D, Ago, VR and Hailwood. Those guys are just very special and Casey has never looked to be in their class. You said forget Jorge, but the guy dominated 250's for 2 years, he comes in to Moto and is faster than Vali, sure he has had some huge offs, yet even though he is riding with serious pain ‘X Fuera’ is still in the top 4 and is still making passes late in the race. If there is one young guy, that looks like a VR in the making it is him. That being said Dani P is still to guy to beat this year, he is just so consistent, Vali has had a few mistakes that have let others in (never thought I would say that)

[DezinerPaul]

Hello.

Welcome to the forums.

You might want to try being on here for more than five days before you decide to slag off people who have been on here for years and are well-known and respected amongst these parts. ("I also guarantee that I know more about racing than most on here" - way to endear yourself, I don't think)

As for your posts - yep, Vale is definitely in the twilight of his career. Except that it's been a good twilight as he was leading the championship before Assen with a few wins, and is just 4 points behind at present. Not to mention the seven titles beforehand, as Jan mentioned.

No-one's saying Dani, Jorge, or Casey are rubbish - far from it as already mentioned. Indeed, the starter of this thread was posing the question as to how good Casey is.

It was said tongue in cheek so to speak, was sparked at one particular person and did not choose my words wisely. Nobody can question Stoner's ability, just want to make it clear, that if one is objective, they are not going to consider him as the second coming.
His chances of the title this year are not that good, last year he had a dominant bike, end of.
How good is Stoner? My guess is that he could end up with 2 maybe 3 titles, is he as good as ‘X Fuera’ for my money, I am not sure anybody is as good as the young man from Spain, he is a rare talent.