Theissen: customer cars will ruin F1

[Ranger]

How long, for example, are Toyota willing to pour money at the midfield?

I would be surprised if their last year isn't 2009 - Trulli's deal ends there, as does the Williams deal. If they don't improve substantially then they will not be puching past that methinks.

[samuratt]

I would be surprised if their last year isn't 2009 - Trulli's deal ends there, as does the Williams deal. If they don't improve substantially then they will not be puching past that methinks.

I found this comment on a motorspot article:

I apologise in advance but there's no way Toyota could organise a revolution with Ralf Schumacher and Jarno Trulli. I may be proved wrong -- and will be suitably chastened if I am -- but I just can't see it. The team hardly made any noticeable progress this year and I'm mystified as to why it signed Trulli through 2008. In fact, Toyota is a mystery all together. Do something!

Fousto, what do you have to say about this?

The team is clearly going down, and it would be very sad to see on of the top teams (in terms of budget) leave...

About the provateers it would be nice to have one chassis to rent, so they can concentrate their investments on setups and on track tests, and not so much in I&D, wind tunel, etc...But the chassis should be the same for all of the teams and should have a price in exchange, not just drivers and team orders... Let's say that for the next year, all privateers could buy the design of the current f1 champion chassis.

I don't like the idea of a grid full of Ferraris and McLarens, as Theissen points out, a manufacturer with 3 teams on the grid could organise the race so it developes his way, and that wouldn't be good for the sport. We will have a new concept to think about, which is: manufacturer orders.

[agwiii]

I assume that Theissen opposes Red Bull/Toro Rosso in that case. They are effectively one team running four cars. To make it worse they are using "customer" Ferrari and Renault engines.

Is there a difference between a team providing their chassis to another team, and an engine manufacturer providing engines to a second team?

I have a problem with Theissen's view simply because manufacturers enter and leave F1 with no consideration for the sport. At the moment BMW are one of a number of manufacturers involved, but Ford have shown that manufacturers involvement can end at any time. At the moment F1 is dominated by manufacturers, but their financial committment is not limitless.

How long, for example, are Toyota willing to pour money at the midfield?

All valid points. I've raised the engine issue before -- the eras of Coventry-Climax, Ford DFV, etc.) However, I don't believe we solve these problems with new and even more complex rules.

[wedge]

I like the idea of what Super Aguri did, taking and old chassis and adapting it.

Of course there is a danger of a team like Williams - God forbid - having to rely on customer chassis. It still saddens me slightly that a great organisation like Penske no longer make their own cars for oval racing.

[TOgoFASTER]

Manufactures or independant teams have come and gone on pretty much the same basis over the years. Their commitments to the sport overall have varied greatly in both camps.

Governance and rules packages have also played a huge part in whom plays and whom walks away.The current climate set by that same governance has made on purpose a platform favoring car manufactures. It's been that way for at least a decade now. It feeds their bottom line and has little to do with the overall health of F1. Right or wrong it's the way it is.

One way or another there always is and has been a manufacture in the engine bay somewhere on the grid. The importance and reality of that in many areas is being overlooked by some.

"Ford have shown that manufacturers involvement can end at any time."
Huh? They also showed what a great asset they were during the DFV kit car decades.
Going broke can be as much as a problem and effect to a major manufacture as it was for the likes of Jordan, Minardi etc.
And like whom that can it end at any time? Hesketh, Wolf, Penske etc. Funny I never have seen these teams nor many others come back as say Honda, Renault or even Mercedes have.
When will DiDi walk?

BRM had a long hard climb to the top and a hard fall. For me they were an example of a group that lived for F1. In the end they were just as Ferrari, a F1 manufacture. There is a great value in a team that built it all win or lose, above engine hopping.

Would Theissen's statement be the same if BMW had a "B" team?

Only good governance of the sport can bring a balance, something sorely missing for the long term now.

Williams started out using customer chassis'. Brabham, Detomaso, ISO
Though I would say now the more likely customer chassis would come from them and would be used by Toyota. Williams is coming out of a down period with new income and a revised staff, Toyota has never built a competitive F1 chassis.
I also very much doubt while Frank is alive Williams will become a permanent "B" team in any shape or form.

[V12]

In an ideal world, as in the past, the bulk of the teams were building their own cars, but the field was supplemented by a few private entries - constructors that made a business out of selling customer cars alongside their works entry - such as March, with a few year old cars, Tyrrells, Brabhams, Lotuses etc. Unfortunately I'm inclined to agree with Thiessen - when customer cars are allowed, I get the feeling that we'll end up with basically six four car teams, maybe will improve the competitiveness throughout the field, but at the loss of that extra variety, kind of like what touring car racing is like at the minute.

[jjanicke]

I don't know what all the fuss is about. Champ car is very exciting, perhaps even more so, during the race, than F1. All teams are driving the same chassis and engine however a few seem to rise to the top again and again. I'm positive this is down to these teams investing in engineering and R&D to make their spec cars go fast (and faster).

I'm not sure what Mario is whining about, as most, if not all of his concerns can easily be handled.

I'm all for it. I would love to see a privateer Mclaren, Ferrari or Renault take it to the big boys and change up the yawn fests of late.

[Roamy]

I found this comment on a motorspot article:

I apologise in advance but there's no way Toyota could organise a revolution with Ralf Schumacher and Jarno Trulli. I may be proved wrong -- and will be suitably chastened if I am -- but I just can't see it. The team hardly made any noticeable progress this year and I'm mystified as to why it signed Trulli through 2008. In fact, Toyota is a mystery all together. Do something!

Fousto, what do you have to say about this?

The team is clearly going down, and it would be very sad to see on of the top teams (in terms of budget) leave...

About the provateers it would be nice to have one chassis to rent, so they can concentrate their investments on setups and on track tests, and not so much in I&D, wind tunel, etc...But the chassis should be the same for all of the teams and should have a price in exchange, not just drivers and team orders... Let's say that for the next year, all privateers could buy the design of the current f1 champion chassis.

I don't like the idea of a grid full of Ferraris and McLarens, as Theissen points out, a manufacturer with 3 teams on the grid could organise the race so it developes his way, and that wouldn't be good for the sport. We will have a new concept to think about, which is: manufacturer orders.

fousto says **** BMW and Toyota.
Toyota created there own demise by locating in Koln and starting out with that Baffoon Ovary Andersen. They have not hired a top driver to date (sorry Pino) Actually I can't recall one person worth a sh!t at Toyota. Christ they may as well merge with Prix Richards and move to England.

[ArrowsFA1]

"Ford have shown that manufacturers involvement can end at any time."
Huh? They also showed what a great asset they were during the DFV kit car decades.
Going broke can be as much as a problem and effect to a major manufacture as it was for the likes of Jordan, Minardi etc.
And like whom that can it end at any time? Hesketh, Wolf, Penske etc. Funny I never have seen these teams nor many others come back as say Honda, Renault or even Mercedes have.

I was referring to the Ford/Jaguar period in particular, but your point is well made. In my defence I'd say that Ford merely provided the financial backing for Keith Duckworth and Cosworth (at the behest of Colin Chapman) to produce the DFV. It was not a Ford product, although the Ford & Cosworth names will always remain linked.

Ford in F1 have been most effective when working with specialists like Cosworth, or in partnership with the likes of Lotus, Williams, Benetton and even Stewart. When they go it alone their record is not stupendous, something that Toyota are learning to their cost.

[Dazz9908]

I'm all for partnerships and customer cars in F1. And "Hopefully" it will close the gaps to the bigger teams and incite closer racing. "Hopefully" the Concorde agreement and the FIA will allow bigger grids, which has I think has been seriously lacking in F1 for Soooo lLong.