FIA Rally Working Group: the future of WRC and the rally sport

[wyler]

No, i don't go after the first cars. I'm a rallyfan, not a tiktok-prostitute.

Sent fra min SM-S901B via Tapatalk

sorry but if i travel the world to see wrc ( like i do), i want to see the more top drivers i can. so i will definitely, even with a bit of sadness, sometimes, "sacrifice" rally2 & others for more rally1 time. i don't care in being a diehard fan. i spend the money to see the best in the world.

[WRCStan]

Yaris GR, but the "new" Gr.A is the R5.

OK I was expecting a variety. You picked the one car both bucking the trend and already heavily committed to rally.

R5/Rally2 is ~12 years old already, can make sense short term but cannot be sustained to, say 2030. 6 years away.

[WRCStan]

Whilst for sure all regulations have the hope to create interest from new manufacturers, I'm also certain these Rally1 Regulations were created to KEEP the current 3 involved.

I'm sure I've heard Malcolm / Millener say on a number of occasions, that without these regulations Ford would already be gone.

You have to add in the FIA environment goals imposed on the championship which doesn't come from the rally dept. Team bosses can present reality any which way they want.

[WRCStan]

I see another issue with the "ladder" - in WRC2 the main rivals are rarely racing against each other. I'm sure there was some compromise that lead to this current format but I would question what is more important than having a true head to head competition in WRC2? It seems WRC2 is trying to be many things for many people.

One often suggested idea is if you pick 7 events, you are either creating a new championship or changing it to a cup, something they'd have to look into. I'm pretty sure there's boxticking that affects Rally1 and promoter obligations.

The Rally Start program helps to widen the selection at lower levels and take some drivers until WRC2, but it stops before the last step up in the hope manufacturers will pick the drivers up. But then the last step is hard because there are few cars, in the past there were "junior" teams, extra cars, privateers funding partial programs, etc. Allowing non hybrid Rally1 cars was a good step for opening it up but it's probably not enough.

We don't know for sure how much the promoter and FIA help the younger drivers who do make it now. I think the reality is teams, privateers etc are not welcome. Even Bertelli could not officially enter his 'own' car. I think that says it all. Manufacturers/Promoter/FIA should be entirely responsible for grooming talent for the series in this image as they built it, not relying on enthusiasm of others. Something else that isn't sustainable.

Non-hybrids are a non-starter in WRC.

[Mirek]

Mirek, try not to get so offended that someone other than you does not know what you know and is merely putting out suggestions. This is after all meant to be a friendly exchange of ideas between like-minded motorsport fans, nothing serious. We are not the FIA working group so anything discussed here has no bearing on it at all.

I do however appreciate the knowledge you have shared here, it is all interesting information to find out.



I genuinely find this bizarre to get my head round, but also fascinating info to find out. My understanding of a locked diff (sorry, it’s still a diff if it’s splitting torque) is that when turning corners the front/rear speed difference, as well as the left/right speed difference of the wheels would create unwanted slippage to the point of wheels ‘skipping’. It’s been a long time since my university days learning about powertrains and I wasn’t paying much attention back then clearly!



Best to just leave it be as I thought then, I don’t even have an issue with outright speed of Rally2s anyway.



You assume that it is common knowledge that most deadly rally accidents are by 4WD Group N cars? I would like to see evidence of this being the case and the reason for it.



Funnily enough I’ve never worked at Peugeot Sport so no, I didn’t know this. Again it’s fascinating to find out that info, not widely available or reported to my knowledge.



Never said I did. Never claimed to be an expert. And yes I know what a sequential gearbox means, colloquially a stick operated sequential gearbox is referred to as a sequential gearbox and a paddle operated sequential gearbox referred to as a paddle shift - even though a paddle shift may also refer to an epicyclic gearbox or some form of automated manual gearbox with paddle shifters. But don’t let that stop you from getting up on your high-horse.



With exception of the 2011 ones? So surely the Rally2s also don’t have a big enough power band for 5-speed? The 307 was the ONLY one to make use of a 4-speed box and its fair to say that didn’t turn out well.

Sorry for not answering earlier, I was on holidays and didn't read the forum. Also sorry for sounding too arrogant. My bad.

I genuinely find this bizarre to get my head round, but also fascinating info to find out. My understanding of a locked diff (sorry, it’s still a diff if it’s splitting torque) is that when turning corners the front/rear speed difference, as well as the left/right speed difference of the wheels would create unwanted slippage to the point of wheels ‘skipping’. It’s been a long time since my university days learning about powertrains and I wasn’t paying much attention back then clearly!

The cars do suffer a lot from understeering but they somehow managed to cope with it with suspension geometry and diff ramp angles. If you remember the 2011 WRC cars were being driven ridiculously sideways on the loose surface at their beginnings. The reason for that was the abscence of the center differential.

You assume that it is common knowledge that most deadly rally accidents are by 4WD Group N cars? I would like to see evidence of this being the case and the reason for it.

I don't have exact statiastics but when the gr.N 4WD cars were still a thing (unlike today) the far majority of tragic accidents happened with them. I can name a lot of them from my head but I don't think it is necessary. Only here in Czechia we had more than 10 dead from gr.N accidents (most of them spectators). In most cases the reason was the same - uncontrolled rebound of the powered rear axle which was caused mainly by too short suspension travel. Simply said bouncing cars are always spectacular but also always dangerous.

Several examples of the uncontrolled rear axle rebound after a short youtube search.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=kF9WuVrd8so (this one ended tragically for one spectactor)
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=J3Ocf5KwVr0
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=8SOeOa13ypo
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=2gb0dmFdUAQ
https://youtu.be/9Wj-WX-h5B4?t=199 (not an accident but an extreme case of a gr.N car with very short rear axle travel, in this case the rear axle was not driven so it could not cause a spin)

With exception of the 2011 ones? So surely the Rally2s also don’t have a big enough power band for 5-speed?

No, I am sorry but it isn't that easy. 2011 WRC cars and R5/Rally2 cars have the same turbo boost but also different restrictor size and often also different bore/stroke ratio. The WRC cars had the peak power in higher RPM than the R5/Rally2 have because there was enough air for feeding the engine in high rews. The R5/Rally2 have relatively flatter power band because they run out of air quickly. Simply said from the peak power to the RPM limiter the power is relatively constant because it is limited by the restrictor and the R5/Rally2 achieve the peak power about 1000-2000 RPM earlier.

The 307 was the ONLY one to make use of a 4-speed box and its fair to say that didn’t turn out well.

It didn't go well in terms of reliability and I wrote about that. The problems had nothing to do with the performance.

[HKSjbg]

Sorry for not answering earlier, I was on holidays and didn't read the forum. Also sorry for sounding too arrogant. My bad.



The cars do suffer a lot from understeering but they somehow managed to cope with it with suspension geometry and diff ramp angles. If you remember the 2011 WRC cars were being driven ridiculously sideways on the loose surface at their beginnings. The reason for that was the abscence of the center differential.



I don't have exact statiastics but when the gr.N 4WD cars were still a thing (unlike today) the far majority of tragic accidents happened with them. I can name a lot of them from my head but I don't think it is necessary. Only here in Czechia we had more than 10 dead from gr.N accidents (most of them spectators). In most cases the reason was the same - uncontrolled rebound of the powered rear axle which was caused mainly by too short suspension travel. Simply said bouncing cars are always spectacular but also always dangerous.

Several examples of the uncontrolled rear axle rebound after a short youtube search.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=kF9WuVrd8so (this one ended tragically for one spectactor)
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=J3Ocf5KwVr0
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=8SOeOa13ypo
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=2gb0dmFdUAQ
https://youtu.be/9Wj-WX-h5B4?t=199 (not an accident but an extreme case of a gr.N car with very short rear axle travel, in this case the rear axle was not driven so it could not cause a spin)



No, I am sorry but it isn't that easy. 2011 WRC cars and R5/Rally2 cars have the same turbo boost but also different restrictor size and often also different bore/stroke ratio. The WRC cars had the peak power in higher RPM than the R5/Rally2 have because there was enough air for feeding the engine in high rews. The R5/Rally2 have relatively flatter power band because they run out of air quickly. Simply said from the peak power to the RPM limiter the power is relatively constant because it is limited by the restrictor and the R5/Rally2 achieve the peak power about 1000-2000 RPM earlier.



It didn't go well in terms of reliability and I wrote about that. The problems had nothing to do with the performance.

Thank you for your response Mirek, and apologies for my abrupt reply as well. The only thing I have to add to that is I thought, aside from reliability, the Peugeot drivers thought the 4-speed box was a stupid idea and were waiting for the team to relent and switch back to 5? Anyway it’s beside the point…

More interesting reading on the 2011 WRC cars. I actually had a good look at the ‘boxes on display at the Sadev stand at Autosport International yesterday, but I didn’t have enough confidence in the engineering knowledge of the chaps manning that particular stall to ask any technical questions

[Rallyper]

+10 on those replies regarding tone of voice.

This is the level I want to see in all discussions, although I know I wasn´t best representative of it, years ago...
Nowadays I always try to be polite, but sometimes everyone risks to go wild after being provoked. Even so me.

But guys - this above is good example, I think.

[Sulland]

Could we see a concept like we had in the past with wrc and rrc cars that had clear similarities, but were different in power and aero?

WRC2+ with more aero and 1 or 2 mm larger restrictor.
With upgrade kits for teams that want to do their local WRC round, to battle with the best!

A concept like that would imo give more top class cars in most rounds, and a better show for us!

[WRCStan]

I recommend that specifics of restrictor sizes and locked differentials chat should go in main class in 2025 thread, else there are two similar conversations going on.

The chat here should have the long term future in mind and the path to get there, not next season. It could be whether the top tier of WRC should be accessible to, or even aimed at privateers, instead of being the showbiz/entertainment class for manufacturers it currently is. Alternatively put, picture the World Championship in 2030s, what does Rally2+ for 2025 mean?

[Mirek]

Could we see a concept like we had in the past with wrc and rrc cars that had clear similarities, but were different in power and aero?

WRC2+ with more aero and 1 or 2 mm larger restrictor.
With upgrade kits for teams that want to do their local WRC round, to battle with the best!

A concept like that would imo give more top class cars in most rounds, and a better show for us!

The RRC was a total failure. There is no need to repeat the same mistakes.