Good old Bernie....

[Bagwan]

What is your point?

My point is that you are speculating about all this based on speculation that Sr. knew about the scam earlier than he let on .

Consider first that Jr. wasn't likely proud of the action . and may not have wanted anyone to know , especially Dad .
Then , think about the pressure from Flav and Renault to keep it quiet .

You also have the home town boy first "winning" the race , then , later the same lap , Lewis passing Timo for the win , breaking heart of Brazil .


All we really know is that , according to Bernie and the Piquets , they knew in time to make a decision about it .
But the decision they made , they said , did not consider it because they only found out when it was revealed the next year when they snubbed the son for the seat .

[Bagwan]

But you are claiming that in the intervening six weeks leading to the Brazilian GP, Piquet Sr did not know until the very end of the Brazilian GP after Massa had lost the title. This is simply not believable.

One of these two scenarios are basis for the credibility of the story from Massa. At what point did Piquet Sr know of the Renault conspiracy? This would form the basis of the FIA deciding whether the information is with or without a hidden agenda to overturn the championship outcome of the 2008 championship. If they thought, there was a hidden agenda, the situation was most likely not going to fall under the normal procedures of the FIA; which is defined for bonifide and credible sources of information.

Piquet Sr being an F1 champion can do the maths to work out that without the Singapore GP, the championship can be reverted to Massa.

If he knew well in advance, then why did he not notify the FIA the instant he found out? If he found out at the Brazilian GP, then at what point during the race weekend did he find out? At the start of the race, during the race, or at the very end of the race?

I think they have seen a title stolen from Hamilton and think he is a soft target and they are taking a long shot to see if they can pull it off.

If their story had any gravitas, l think Ferrari would have shown some support for their cause. This one is likely to end in an embarrassing way.

The other question is, was Piquet Sr as the source of the information, one of the recognized sources of information to activate the reaction of the FIA? we don't know that either. There are a few things we do not know.

No .
I'm saying we don't know , and giving you examples of the opposite scenario to yours .

I'm a little baffled at the use of the words "hidden agenda" , as this implies that there was something nefarious about it .
Your comments about Lewis being a "soft target" reveal your own hidden agenda .

Lewis and his fans will rightly see it as a rival trying to steal his championship , but they should remember that , Massa and his fans see it the exactly opposite way , and have done so since it was all revealed those many years ago .

Don't fall down some deep conspiracy rabbit hole over this .

Massa wants the race nullified , and given it was only 15 laps in , he maybe has a point .
He doesn't want it counted at lap 14 , as that would be half points awarded , and he'd lose out to Hamilton again .
He doesn't want to have just the Renaults removed as he'd still lose out .

If it can be actually proven that Sr. was told and then told Charly, and he told Max and Bernie within the allowable time frame , then Massa has a point .

If the FIA decides that the appropriate measure is to nullify the race , then to award him a trophy , it might be proper to call them "co-winners" or something akin to that , as it is in no way Lewis's fault .

I think it's all a bit academic , though , as first , you need to embarrass some big wigs , and a "perfect" organization , then have them chose the one of three options they have to deal with the issue .
Good luck with that .

I've met Massa , and I see him as a pouty little turd , but I wouldn't mind seeing him with a trophy , as long as Lewis doesn't lose his .

[airshifter]

Your recent edit is telling Nitrodaze. When someone points out that you are not speaking known truths but dealing in speculation, and it's true, questioning their character isn't the appropriate action to take.


IF this conversation with Piquet Sr. and Charlie took place at all, chances are only Piquet Sr and Jr are aware of when he was given the information, why the delay took place, and why it came up at the end of the race in Brazil. Yet you're rattling on about what is impossible when 1000's of scenarios are possible, and at this point of time none of us know which might be truth.

Just as with your often frequent other conspiracy theories, this one is much the same. Essentially that people conspired to screw Lewis over, and this is just another example of that. But for anyone that can look at this case without bias, Lewis has nothing to do with any potential wrongdoing, possibility for punishment, or anything else. He would simply be the guy that awarded the title that might have rightly belonged to another. Nobody would blame Lewis for accepting a title awarded, nor would anyone most likely think anything less of Lewis if the FIA member(s) acted in poor faith and didn't do the right thing.

Not everyone else's Formula 1 world revolves around Lewis. Though I was never a big Massa fan myself if he got screwed out of a title that by the regs at the time was rightly his, they should right that wrong. And though you bring it up any chance you have, this is not even remotely similar to the results of AD '21. This is an instance that, if proven true, shows they covered up a race fixing incident and let it slide.

[Bagwan]

"Please don't start the Hamilton fans crap. This is a plain discussion which incidentally affects Hamilton."

Many , many times you have called me out for being a Hamilton hater because I dared to disagree about some issue or incident in which he was involved .
Do you see that irony ?

It's OK to be a Hamilton fan , you know .


In the quote from Bernie that shifter posted , I would interpret "we" as "Max and I" , as the show was basically run by those two cowboys .

As for Massa making his claim and invoking a "microscope" reaction , perhaps the dirty dealings need that , to sort out why things were done the way they were .

[airshifter]

Please just join the conversation. Having a go at me only brings about a reaction to your jibes and the conversation disintegrates into an argument rather than a discussion.

If you find argument in others stating known facts as such, or that speculation is just that, then you probably should just write all these thoughts in your personal journal and be done with it. At this point you've engaged in deep conspiracy theories on several levels well outside this incident, but insist that only your speculation on the matters must be considered feasible. You've made digs at essentially anyone that might dare question your speculation or opinion, and then claim to be a victim when you're called out on it. Your reactions are a result of convincing yourself that you are in your own mind a greater authority on all these matters than others could possibly be.

There are very few things known in this entire matter, other than Felipe has a number of lawyers and is moving forward.

If you want to go deep into your rabbit hole of conspiracy theories and vast speculation, accept the fact that others might not agree with it. And accept that statements of others are just as valid as a possible cause, opinion, reason, etc as your own, especially when people clearly label them with "if" and "might have" type qualifying statements. You're no more an authority on any of these matters than anyone else following the story, and being that we are all still only dealing with claims and accusations yet to be proven to have even taken place, there is really no room for anyone to start speaking in absolutes.

[Bagwan]

This is a thread that you started. As the author of the thread, it is up to you to conduct yourself in an exemplary manner to everyone who contributes to your thread. Insulting or using disparaging words to those who contribute to your thread would simply inform them and other readers of this threads to avoid your threads in the future.

I suppose you don't see the irony in this post , either .

You are a Lewis Hamilton fan behind a thin veil .

Did I just insult you ?

[Bagwan]

I just fixed two holes in the fence where the rabbits were getting into the garden .

[airshifter]

I just fixed two holes in the fence where the rabbits were getting into the garden .

Be cautious Bagwan. Once those rabbits get in, you can end up with rabbit holes, and if you start going down them.... well we see how that works out for some people!




Sorry Nitrodaze, I'm not going to play along with your victim mentality and continued jabs and conspiracy theories. You are the one editing and deleting posts that are lame and childish attempts IMHO to stop others from ever differing with anything you claim, even that which is known to be simply speculation. You edited a post taking a shot at Bagwan in this thread, and then deleted another taking a shot at me. So no... I'm not going to play along with the victim game.

Everyone else on here manages to get along without resorting to insults, even when we often vary in opinions and discussions in facts. Don't expect the world to change around your views. For years now you've attempted to paint many others as uninformed, grossly biased, haters, racists and more... usually only in defense of all things Hamilton. Yet these are people you know little or anything about. The forum deserves better than childlike actions when engaging in discussion or debate. If you can't slow yourself down enough to see the irony in attacking other forum members then claiming to be attacked, maybe you should just not post until you collect your thoughts better. If you post nonsense, people might call it out as nonsense, and that applies to all of us.

Conspiracy theories happen all the time in F1, and you're more than entitled to discuss whatever conspiracy theory you might have. But when you expect others to engage, that's their choice, not a requirement. And when they reach a point of too deep a theory, usually someone will point out that it's over the top.

Not that any of this matters. According to one of my former neighbors Hamilton was never the legit winner of the title in 2008 regardless. To him the fact that it happened on the last corner, on the last lap, of the last race of the reason was absolute proof that the title was gifted to him. And he probably still believes that to this day. But belief doesn't make him correct.

[Bagwan]

"Be cautious Bagwan. Once those rabbits get in, you can end up with rabbit holes, and if you start going down them.... well we see how that works out for some people! '

It was pure coincidence , shifter , that I was forced to fix it today .
I had to chase a bunny out just yesterday , and earlier in the year he messed with the trophy wife's beans , so the saggy gate that allowed entry (and exit when I caught him in there) needed work .

I was glad to read the words "rabbit hole" in this thread as it reminded me of the fix that was needed .

[Bagwan]

Looks like I chased a bunny out of the garden and this thread .