Mercedes AMG Petronas W14

[Nitrodaze]

The time sheets are more truthful. Yeah, 6 tenths off Red Bull isn't exactly great news but at least they are still up there.

Up there in 6th and 7th you mean. On other faster tracks, the one-and-a-half gap would materialise l think. They have stuffed it again but would claw back their performance as the season goes on. But, l fear they would most likely to miss the boat again this season. It is a great surprise to see they turned up with the W13 in black and called it W14. I suspect they overspent last season carrying on with the W13 when they should have put that time and money on a revamped W14.

They are behaving and looking very much like a midfield team at the moment

[Zico]

Up there in 6th and 7th you mean. On other faster tracks, the one-and-a-half gap would materialise l think. They have stuffed it again but would claw back their performance as the season goes on. But, l fear they would most likely to miss the boat again this season. It is a great surprise to see they turned up with the W13 in black and called it W14. I suspect they overspent last season carrying on with the W13 when they should have put that time and money on a revamped W14.

They are behaving and looking very much like a midfield team at the moment

Last year they had a car with an inherant flaw which they also struggled to understand and so they couldn't really pull very much good data that was going to get their 23 car competitive from the get go.They are about where I expected them to be.

They are probably about 5-6 months behind everyone else in terms of development because of the fresh start... while their competitors have evolutions of the 22 cars, when you consider that, to still be 3rd/4th best car, that's really not that bad IMO.

If they fall further back I'll be more inclined to agree with you but its only Q3 of the first race of the season so don't be too hasty in judging them. I think they will develop fast and close that current gap right down to be competitive before the seasons halfway point.

[Nitrodaze]

Last year they had a car with an inherant flaw which they also struggled to understand and so they couldn't really pull very much good data that was going to get their 23 car competitive from the get go.They are about where I expected them to be.

They are probably about 5-6 months behind everyone else in terms of development because of the fresh start... while their competitors have evolutions of the 22 cars, when you consider that, to still be 3rd/4th best car, that's really not that bad IMO.

If they fall further back I'll be more inclined to agree with you but its only Q3 of the first race of the season so don't be too hasty in judging them. I think they will develop fast and close that current gap right down to be competitive before the seasons halfway point.

I really hope they can get competitive by halfway point, but that could be way too late to be in the fight for the championship if Ferrari gets their act together and Aston Martin improve further as they understand their car.

[Tazio]

https://www.planetf1.com/news/merced...in-six-months/

Sorrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrry!

Just kidding. Toto seems to be very humble about this, even to the point of being happy for AM.
However, I wonder what he thinks off the record.

Sent from my Pixel 6 using Tapatalk

[Nitrodaze]

https://www.planetf1.com/news/merced...in-six-months/

Sorrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrry!

Just kidding. Toto seems to be very humble about this, even to the point of being happy for AM.
However, I wonder what he thinks off the record.

Sent from my Pixel 6 using Tapatalk

That is the point though. If Aston Martin can make such a step forward, this is a yardstick for Mercedes. It indicates that they have been underprepared for this season. Or they lack the personnel capable of producing a championship-winning car. The W14 looks good but it is a disgrace for the Mercedes brand. I find it quite unbelievable that they are not irked by the way the car has turned out. Eventually does not cut it.

[Nitrodaze]

What are the factors that have led to the slump at Mercedes besides the regulations that they do not seem to ber able to get right after two goes at it?

Two key factors come to mind:-

1. The loss of Nikki Lauda
2. Possible key personnel leaving or defecting to competitors of Mercedes.

For the second point, l wonder if that alone is enough to account for their clear loss of intellectual edge that has seen them lead the grid for many years. They still have the essential core personnel in place. So what else is the issue with Mercedes?

[Zico]

What are the factors that have led to the slump at Mercedes besides the regulations that they do not seem to ber able to get right after two goes at it?

Two key factors come to mind:-

1. The loss of Nikki Lauda
2. Possible key personnel leaving or defecting to competitors of Mercedes.

For the second point, l wonder if that alone is enough to account for their clear loss of intellectual edge that has seen them lead the grid for many years. They still have the essential core personnel in place. So what else is the issue with Mercedes?

They have lost a few key staff, Fallows to AM for one.. who co-incidently are now doing pretty nicely.

For me a fair chunk of it is also because the RB/Honda and Ferrari PU's have now been up to Mercedes PU performance for the last 2 years..
Throw in the new ground effect regs which they seem to have gone in the wrong direction with... and they can no longer just turn up the wick on the PU's to overcome any aero deficit like they used to be able to do at will, with so much in reserve.

Unfortunately they have stuck to their 'zero' pods concept believing their wind tunnel data and perhaps the Aero Engineers beliefs that they could make it work ... whether that is solely the CFD/aerodynamicists fault or not, cannot be known by us... but as team principle the buck ultimately stops with Toto.

Lewis has also been very vocal that he was not listened to on what was required and direction to go in for the 23 car. All is not rosy for them right now but if it was up to me I'd write off this season if they don't become competitive by Monaco. If they cant make a breakthrough it might make more sense to start running a B car with the whole RB concept at the front developing it early for 24 over the remainder of the season.

[Nitrodaze]

They have lost a few key staff, Fallows to AM for one.. who co-incidently are now doing pretty nicely.

For me a fair chunk of it is also because the RB/Honda and Ferrari PU's have now been up to Mercedes PU performance for the last 2 years..
Throw in the new ground effect regs which they seem to have gone in the wrong direction with... and they can no longer just turn up the wick on the PU's to overcome any aero deficit like they used to be able to do at will, with so much in reserve.

Unfortunately they have stuck to their 'zero' pods concept believing their wind tunnel data and perhaps the Aero Engineers beliefs that they could make it work ... whether that is solely the CFD/aerodynamicists fault or not, cannot be known by us... but as team principle the buck ultimately stops with Toto.

Lewis has also been very vocal that he was not listened to on what was required and direction to go in for the 23 car. All is not rosy for them right now but if it was up to me I'd write off this season if they don't become competitive by Monaco. If they cant make a breakthrough it might make more sense to start running a B car with the whole RB concept at the front developing it early for 24 over the remainder of the season.

It is disturbing to hear that their design office is not aligned with their most successful driver. It is sort of looking like a " we know best " mentality which usually very subjective.

[airshifter]

It is disturbing to hear that their design office is not aligned with their most successful driver. It is sort of looking like a " we know best " mentality which usually very subjective.

I doubt there are any drivers around that know more about engineering a F1 car than the engineers know. I'm sure Lewis had the drawings on a napkin of how to make the best car?


No doubt every driver wants a great car and gives input. From that point it gets complex fairly quickly in the current day and age. There are limits everywhere, and the aero alone is more complex than most of us would even understand unless broken down. It's not as if any team intentionally gives the drivers a car that they won't like.

[Nitrodaze]

I doubt there are any drivers around that know more about engineering a F1 car than the engineers know. I'm sure Lewis had the drawings on a napkin of how to make the best car?


No doubt every driver wants a great car and gives input. From that point it gets complex fairly quickly in the current day and age. There are limits everywhere, and the aero alone is more complex than most of us would even understand unless broken down. It's not as if any team intentionally gives the drivers a car that they won't like.

If any engineer designs anything without the feedback of those who shall use the product, it is very unlikely to meet the expectation of those that will use it. Most products fail in the market for this very reason. The engineers are also not f1 racing drivers themselves. The feedback of the driver is crucial to producing a successful car. The inputs of Schumacher helped turn the Brawn back into a championship-winning car, and the continued input of Hamilton and Rosberg helped to sustain the edge the car to continue to have to be the car to beat for many years after.

I suppose the W13 and W14 cars are crap {crap is a strong word but it is compared to their pre-2022 reg cars} maybe for the absence of this very crucial component of the design process. But then again, l understand where your motivation to write your comment is originating from.