[WRC] Ardeca Ypres Rally 2022

[mknight]

Btw, this might have gone under the radar, but this was only the second podium on tarmac for Lappi, with his first being way back in Germany 2018, I know he didn't display any amazing times but he managed to keep his nose clean and get another good result.

I think he did very well and precisely what was missing up to this point of the season (including in Finland).

His job at Toyota right now should not be to charge for wins and risk crashes, especially not when one or both other Toyotas are out (yes, talking about Sardinia), or on first stage (Croatia).
His main job is to score points when the two top drivers have an issue and score more points than Hyundai.

I heard somewhere (pbrly Allive) that this might have saved his seat for next year (vs Katsuta), I can agree on that.

[Eli]

I think he did very well and precisely what was missing up to this point of the season (including in Finland).

His job at Toyota right now should not be to charge for wins and risk crashes, especially not when one or both other Toyotas are out (yes, talking about Sardinia), or on first stage (Croatia).
His main job is to score points when the two top drivers have an issue and score more points than Hyundai.

And like you said he delivered that very well, hopefully he can keep the momentum and not mock it up on an event everyone but him & Breen did last year.

[Integrale]

You mean that Toksport somehow managed to pursue Lefevbre to take 4 wheels off the road on both passes even though everyone was reminded before the start not to do it and no other P1-driver (WRC+WRC2 top) did it (says so in the stewards decision, I checked Tanak, Rossel, Ingram and MIkkelsen). Epic skills they have.

No, I mean that I can understand Alain Georges if he's upset with the behaviour of the Toksport team. I don't like it as well. You're reading things that aren’t there.

I agree that it was good that they didn't change the results with penalties. If the penaly happened Saturday evening it would be ok but not after everyone is finished. If Toksport timed the decision to happen first after finish they are both nasty and stupid (stupid cause after finish there is much lower chance they will change results), I am not 100% sure when they submitted it.

The two protests were received on Sunday at 12:55 and 12:56. Alain Georges said that he was informed of the protests on the podium of the rally. He initially thought that Lefebvre didn't follow the liasion route or something, so he seemed pretty unaware of what might be the issue.

To follow your conspiracy levels: (irrelevant stuff), just like I don't think Toksport told their drivers not to cut there just so they could penalize Lefevbre (How do you convince Lefevbre to do something illegal?, also Ingram cut deeper than Rossel for example). According to stewards decision they watched the vid of all P1 drivers and nobody cut like Lefevbre. In Ypres just from watching this one stage Lefevbre is much deeper on multiple corners sometimes with 4 wheels off.

What you believe isn’t really what matters. What matters for me is that one of the Toksport team members (Bernt Kollevold) went to a turn to film the competitors of Andreas Mikkelsen. Nobody forced Lefebvre to cut that deep, that’s absolutely right. But I want to add that Ypres Rally has a lot of these places. It’s part of the character of the rally.

If you want to enforce this rule in Ypres all competitors will get penalties. But you can’t really enforce it in a way that treats everyone the same. The FIA or the organisation can’t control it. The only way to enforce it is by complaints. That’s the issue. It’s arbitrary. And to add to that, teams have an incentive to ‘catch’ their adversaries.

So all crews should just follow the rules then, right?

Maybe you guys can understand it with the picture below.

If your conclusion is that DG Sport should’ve filed a complaint for this cut, then that’s exactly what my problem is.

People make the argument that Lefebvre ‘knew it’ and ‘he’s the idiot’. In the Stewards Decisions there’s a reference to the Clerk of the Course Communication 6. This communication was the result of ‘a Manufacturer raising the question of corner cutting before the event’. The Clerk of the Course Communication 6 says: “Furthermore, on the special stages the organisers may erect barriers or any other hindrances where they believe competitors have deviated from the roadway during reconnaissance or the first running of the stages. Any deviation will be reported to the Stewards.”

This is a very general statement. I really don’t think Lefebvre knew about anything. He drove like he always does in Belgium. I’m not sure about that of course, but it doesn’t really matter for me actually.

About the suggestion to put barriers in cuts… I don't think it would be smart if the organisation started putting up blocks or haybales after the recce has finished. I think everybody on this forum understands why.

[mknight]

... Toksport had sent someone to film the corner at Wijtschate, both on SS11 and SS15. They had told all their drivers not to cut that corner....

What you believe isn’t really what matters. What matters for me is that one of the Toksport team members (Bernt Kollevold) went to a turn to film the competitors of Andreas Mikkelsen.

Indeed, what you believe isn't what really matters. Here is your conspiracy theory that Toksport sent him to film specifically competitors of Mikkelsen and then specifically told their drivers not to cut on that specific corner.
Somehow Ingram and Rossel got the memo backwards then, as Ingram cut much more than Rossel, who was similar to Mikkelsen... and both meters off Lefevbre.

I watched the two runs of onboards of Lefevbre and compared with Mikkelsen, Rossel and Ingram (all Rally2 available at that point) and it was immediatelly clear that Lefevbre was deeper on all cuts where you could pick. It's not that it was just specific corner where everything was different. Sure I haven't watched other stages.

If you want to enforce this rule in Ypres all competitors will get penalties. But you can’t really enforce it in a way that treats everyone the same. The FIA or the organisation can’t control it. The only way to enforce it is by complaints. That’s the issue. It’s arbitrary. And to add to that, teams have an incentive to ‘catch’ their adversaries.

Maybe you guys can understand it with the picture below.

If your conclusion is that DG Sport should’ve filed a complaint for this cut, then that’s exactly what my problem is.

How deep is ok is for stewards/rules to decide and clearly indicate. Don't see the big issue as long as there is a clear definition. For example "not all 4 wheels off the road". (Was there one communicated before the rally? I dunno, some senteces seem to point to that). If that picture is from SS and all wheels are off road (not 100% clear angle) then that should lead to same penalty (5s for first offence) if there is to be a consistency.

There has to be a clear line of what is allowed and what is not. Not a fluffy one, where one thinks is ok while others don't.

I really don’t think Lefebvre knew about anything. He drove like he always does in Belgium.

I think so as well, and with this penalty the stewards indicated that this way was not ok for WRC. This limit should have been clearly communicated to everyone before the rally.

About the suggestion to put barriers in cuts… I don't think it would be smart if the organisation started putting up blocks or haybales after the recce has finished. I think everybody on this forum understands why.

Obviously those should be put before recce like it is usually done on just about all rallies.

[ouvreur]

Indeed, what you believe isn't what really matters. Here is your conspiracy theory that Toksport sent him to film specifically competitors of Mikkelsen and then specifically told their drivers not to cut on that specific corner.
Somehow Ingram and Rossel got the memo backwards then, as Ingram cut much more than Rossel, who was similar to Mikkelsen... and both meters off Lefevbre.

You know who the cameraman is, right? Or more importantly, who he works for / with, and in what capacity?

I wouldn't have said the 'conspiracy' involved the whole team. Just the one crew. In fact, such a small circle of trust to the point that none of the other crews being serviced by the same team (I hesitate to call them team-mates in this instance) probably had a clue the 'sting' was happening. But a sting WAS happening.

Taking the facts that are available to us into consideration, it seems that the protesting crew:

-knew this corner would be somewhere a committed driver with lots of Belgian experience would take a bigger than legal cut
-sent their man to film at that location with the express intent of gathering evidence of car 24 taking such a cut
-made sure they were as neat and tidy as possible to set a nice contrast
-sat on the evidence until the end of the event, then tried to use it to get a crew that had beaten them fairly resoundingly over three days of rallying enough of a penalty to overhaul them

I don't like it. The stewards shouldn't have entertained it. The organisers shouldn't have allowed it to happen. Tell me why I'm wrong.

[Integrale]

Indeed, what you believe isn't what really matters. Here is your conspiracy theory that Toksport sent him to film specifically competitors of Mikkelsen and then specifically told their drivers not to cut on that specific corner.

Oh, but that's not my conspiracy theory. That's what Alain Georges tells himself. If you understand French you can listen yourself. There are some other examples as well. https://www.facebook.com/paulfraikin...4785685721366/.

I watched the two runs of onboards of Lefevbre and compared with Mikkelsen, Rossel and Ingram (all Rally2 available at that point) and it was immediatelly clear that Lefevbre was deeper on all cuts where you could pick. It's not that it was just specific corner where everything was different. Sure I haven't watched other stages.

So Lefebvre made deeper cuts than other drivers.

How deep is ok is for stewards/rules to decide and clearly indicate. Don't see the big issue as long as there is a clear definition. For example "not all 4 wheels off the road". (Was there one communicated before the rally? I dunno, some senteces seem to point to that). If that picture is from SS and all wheels are off road (not 100% clear angle) then that should lead to same penalty (5s for first offence) if there is to be a consistency. There has to be a clear line of what is allowed and what is not. Not a fluffy one, where one thinks is ok while others don't.

Aha! So now we're on the path that manufacturers need to check the cutting of their competitors. Because if one does it, they all need to do it. That's not the way I want to see the sport evolve. Respect the track limits like in Formula 1.

Think about it again. A Toksport team member went to a turn to film a deep cut of the rivals. He went there with that purpose. A day later, his video is used in a complaint in an attempt to win the rally after the rally has finished. I think it's far from fair play and far from the spirit of rally.

Obviously those should be put before recce like it is usually done on just about all rallies. Can't see how it is difficult to see the problematic corners before recce.

You've never been to Ypres I think? Ypres is all about cutting.

Outside assistance is also forbidden on the stages, right? So helping cars back on the road - a common practice in many countries, part of the rally spirit - is a practice that should be sanctioned?

[mknight]

Aha! So now we're on the path that manufacturers need to check the cutting of their competitors. Because if one does it, they all need to do it. That's not the way I want to see the sport evolve. Respect the track limits like in Formula 1.

Competitors self-regulate themselves quite a bit. If they know they risk a penalty for taking 4 wheels of the road, they won't do it. They won't rely on "not getting caught" cause it's too big risk.

There have to be rules right, you are not suggesting that cars drive where they want and it depends on gentleman's agreement?

Think about it again. A Toksport team member went to a turn to film a deep cut of the rivals. He went there with that purpose. A day later, his video is used in a complaint in an attempt to win the rally after the rally has finished. I think it's far from fair play and far from the spirit of rally.

Toksport team member was in a turn on a rally and was filming. That's the facts, what purpose he went there for is speculation.

On one side you can have deep conspiracy theories (ref other post) on the other side he could just go in a corner and afterwards notice that Lefevbre was the only one completely off the road, or it can be something in between.

As noted before the protest was submitted before PS, when the gap was 23s. In Monte which was the only recent example people got penalized 5s per cut. Even with 10s it wouldn't be enough to win.
So it is not clear that the complaint was "attempt to win the rally".

But I totally agree they should have submitted it Saturday evening and if it was on purpose this late it is bad form.
At the same time it is stupid, cause it is much less likely the stewards will change the results after the race is finished.

You've never been to Ypres I think? Ypres is all about cutting.

Sure so cutting straight across a field (like Mikkelsen did in Poland 2015 or so) is ok? For sure not, so you need to draw a line.

Outside assistance is also forbidden on the stages, right? So helping cars back on the road - a common practice in many countries, part of the rally spirit - is a practice that should be sanctioned?

Now you are just being stupid.

[ouvreur]

People need to stop calling him a Toksport team member. It's disingenuous. The man is Andreas Mikkelsen's regular gravel crew driver. You think he just so happened to be at that corner? That's a naive assessment at best.

Call it a conspiracy, call it what you want, it's bad sportsmanship and it should not have even gone as far as the stewards.

[mknight]

You know who the cameraman is, right? Or more importantly, who he works for / with, and in what capacity?

I wouldn't have said the 'conspiracy' involved the whole team. Just the one crew. In fact, such a small circle of trust to the point that none of the other crews being serviced by the same team (I hesitate to call them team-mates in this instance) probably had a clue the 'sting' was happening. But a sting WAS happening.

Taking the facts that are available to us into consideration, it seems that the protesting crew:

-knew this corner would be somewhere a committed driver with lots of Belgian experience would take a bigger than legal cut
-sent their man to film at that location with the express intent of gathering evidence of car 24 taking such a cut
-made sure they were as neat and tidy as possible to set a nice contrast
-sat on the evidence until the end of the event, then tried to use it to get a crew that had beaten them fairly resoundingly over three days of rallying enough of a penalty to overhaul them

I don't like it. The stewards shouldn't have entertained it. The organisers shouldn't have allowed it to happen. Tell me why I'm wrong.

Sure it was all deep sting with a small circle of thrust.......and the illuminati are among them..

- So they knew that Lefevbre will be the only one cutting with 4 wheels off (and breaking the rules - your words) none of other Rally1s or P1 Rally2s did, as confirmed by stewards.
- If you watch first pass (SS11) Mikkelsen is actually too fast into the cut and runs wide on the tarmac, for sure that would lead to being more tidy on next pass. Contrast wasn't vs Mikkelsen it was vs everyone

- last is in previous post, submitting the evidence towards the end is stupid cause it's less likely to change results and previous penalty history gave no reason it would work

The stewards did not take it as you suggest, cause they didn't change the results. I agree the organisers should not have allowed this in the first place by being very clear about the rules or by adding anti-cuts.

[mknight]

Call it a conspiracy, call it what you want, it's bad sportsmanship and it should not have even gone as far as the stewards.

You said Lefevbre broke the rules, pointing it is bad sportsmanship and should not be reported to stewards? Are you serious?

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I fully agree that it is bad sportsmanship to report this too late on purpose (if it was), that's a quite different topic.