WRC main class in 2025

[skarderud]

The main problem is lack of competition, and lack of drivers/cars/brands.

Wrc need more teams, if its Rally2 based, a new Rally1, or something different is hard to say, maybe the time is up for a manufacturer-based championship?

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[fiscorpun]

I thought about what Stan keeps saying... Lets talk rally2. Lets assume it will continue "simple as it is". Im not from Europe, but I imagine fiesta, polo, i20, c3 and yaris are NOT the best selling cars in the EU nowadays. If rally2 were to be built on more modern models, what are the..."top5" best selling hatchbacks/almost SUV cars in EU nowadays? Dont need to be from these manufacturers, its just for the sake of the question. Cuz every auto-magazine says one thing... U guys live over there, you see them on the streets

[fiscorpun]

*when Stan say that "what will wrc run in 2030". That was my point hehe. Maybe wrc is one generation behind car market... Even if that its not that important

[skarderud]

It depends, i think countries like france and spain still sell good amounts of small cars.
In norway it is stupid, 3000kg Electric suv's with more power than a normal driver can handle...

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[Mirek]

So what are these 98 %?

The most expensive thing is development and testing cost and the funny thing about it is that this cost doesn't depend on materials used. You can make the whole car from wood but the development and testing cost will be most likely same or even higher (because of lack of know-how related to the said material).

Just think about what is behind a part like let's say a rear wing. There are hundreds of hours of well paid engineer. The engineer needs expensive hardware, software and an office. After that he needs to order various prototypes which are multiple-times more expensive than the final part. Maybe he would need to rent an aerodynamic tunnel. Than you need another more junior engineer to design the wing attachment. He also needs hardware, software and an office and also some prototypes. You need mechanics to put that together. Than you need to take the car a well paid driver, some race engineer(s) and mechanics for a test. You destroy some parts during the testing and wear-out others. You spend thousands of litres of race fuel and wear-out dozens of tyres. And all the time you pay a manager overlooking the development. When you get to the final part you can count all cost which you already spent on it and divide it by the expected number of produced parts. How many wings can a WRC team use during one season? Few dozens I guess? It means that in a price of each wing you have thousands of Euros of development cost and even if you make the wing of paper it will still cost thousands of Euros.

[Mirek]

I thought about what Stan keeps saying... Lets talk rally2. Lets assume it will continue "simple as it is". Im not from Europe, but I imagine fiesta, polo, i20, c3 and yaris are NOT the best selling cars in the EU nowadays. If rally2 were to be built on more modern models, what are the..."top5" best selling hatchbacks/almost SUV cars in EU nowadays? Dont need to be from these manufacturers, its just for the sake of the question. Cuz every auto-magazine says one thing... U guys live over there, you see them on the streets

The best selling cars in Europe in 2003:
1. Tesla Y
2. Dacia Sandero
3. Volkswagen T-Roc
4. Peugeot 208
5. Renault Clio
6. Opel Corsa

As you can see 5 of 6 of these cars are competitors to the WRC cars, so the segment selection is not wrong.

[seb_sh]

The most expensive thing is development and testing cost and the funny thing about it is that this cost doesn't depend on materials used. You can make the whole car from wood but the development and testing cost will be most likely same or even higher (because of lack of know-how related to the said material).

Just think about what is behind a part like let's say a rear wing. There are hundreds of hours of well paid engineer. The engineer needs expensive hardware, software and an office. After that he needs to order various prototypes which are multiple-times more expensive than the final part. Maybe he would need to rent an aerodynamic tunnel. Than you need another more junior engineer to design the wing attachment. He also needs hardware, software and an office and also some prototypes. You need mechanics to put that together. Than you need to take the car a well paid driver, some race engineer(s) and mechanics for a test. You destroy some parts during the testing and wear-out others. You spend thousands of litres of race fuel and wear-out dozens of tyres. And all the time you pay a manager overlooking the development. When you get to the final part you can count all cost which you already spent on it and divide it by the expected number of produced parts. How many wings can a WRC team use during one season? Few dozens I guess? It means that in a price of each wing you have thousands of Euros of development cost and even if you make the wing of paper it will still cost thousands of Euros.

And the gain for that is maybe 0.1s or less per km.

[Mirek]

And the gain for that is maybe 0.1s or less per km.

If it's 0,1 s/km better than your competitor, it's worth it. The manufacturers have the money and when they commit to the series they rather spend more and succeed than save some money and loose because that is money thrown out of the window. That is the the simple truth what people often forget when they expect cheaper cars to succeed even when over and over again the best sellers are always the most expensive but fastest cars of the class.

[TypeR]

Reading like a politician's brochure that all these tens and tens of people are realy needed and can't do anythimg without them..
Take a respected 3D/CAD whatever moduling program, make the detail right and let it run through the ,,wind tunnel'' for a period of time and let's go for testing in the woods..

,,junior engineer'' to drill correct holes for the wing or whatever..

What would you as a top engineer suggest gor the future of WRC top class?
Asking for real..

[Steve Boyd]

Reading like a politician's brochure that all these tens and tens of people are realy needed and can't do anythimg without them..
Take a respected 3D/CAD whatever moduling program, make the detail right and let it run through the ,,wind tunnel'' for a period of time and let's go for testing in the woods..

,,junior engineer'' to drill correct holes for the wing or whatever..

What would you as a top engineer suggest gor the future of WRC top class?
Asking for real..

The last time I had an Autodesk Inventor 3D modelling licence, about 5 years ago, it cost my employer £10000 per annum for that licence and that would only do 3D modelling & assembly with basic stress analysis not CFD. If it was as simple as you seem to think all the F1 cars would be within 1/10ths of a second of each other not wondering how Red Bull is so fast. From the cost of testing that my employer did in independant specialist test laboratories I doubt you'd get half a day in a wind tunnel for £10000 not counting the cost of the model and the expenses of the staff you'd need to send to observe the tests..

Don't forget we got here because that's what the manfacturers wanted. Despite the cost of each Rally1 car it's still cheaper than trying to produce lots of the "homologation special" models that were needed for GpA in the past. Until the maufacturers decide what they want for the next round of homologation we're merely speculating. I also think that unless any "cost-cap" rules are very carefully written they could strongly discourage any new entries into the championship as the ammount that a new entry would need to spend to catch up with the established teams knowledge could use up a lot of their spending allowance before they'd got anything remotely competitive.

Look at MSport's budget and see what it costs to do it on a shoestring and barely keep up with the rest.