2021 - Race 21 Saudi Arabia

[truefan72]

ha ha.

Of course DiResta comes in an defends Max and questions Hamilton.
Predictable

[Nitrodaze]

In a red flag situation well yes, I guess it is and so they have to do the same if it happens again.

As I said.. Its really not so different from during a normal race. The team have the option to give the place back if told to by the Stewards... and if they choose not to they get a 5 sec penalty.
In this case the race was stopped so there really has to be a negotiation. If they didn't give him it, Max would be disadvantaged compared to anyone else it has happened to in a normal race with no red flag. Its a pretty clear and sensible thing to do.. and with continuity IMO.

The problem with that approach is, it discourages teams from taking the initiative to give the place back but carry on until told otherwise. The stewards should not have to do that, the teams should recognize when their driver has broken a rule and take pre-emptive action of asking their driver to give the place back. They are encouraged to do that because when the stewards look at the incident, their only option should be to apply the penalty due.

What we have now is teams would push their luck with the hope to negotiate their way out of the penalty that the regulation imposes. It is a slippery slope from now on, for such.

[denkimi]

I just heard Hamilton did not get the message that Verstappen was going to give the place back until after they had collided. I would think Mercedes probably got the message late too.

Me, and everyone watching have received the message in time. So i find it hard to believe mercedes didn't knew about it.

But clearly hamilton didn't knew about it, so something must have gone wrong there.

Many sketchy things have happened, both by hamilton and verstappen. I'm not sure i like this "let them race" approach. It looks often like no rules apply anymore.

[Nitrodaze]

ha ha.

Of course DiResta comes in an defends Max and questions Hamilton.
Predictable

I don't know why Sky have him in their team. The guy is as dim as they come.

[denkimi]

The problem with that approach is, it discourages teams from taking the initiative to give the place back but carry on until told otherwise. The stewards should not have to do that, the teams should recognize when their driver has broken a rule and take pre-emptive action of asking their driver to give the place back. They are encouraged to do that because when the stewards look at the incident, their only option should be to apply the penalty due.

What we have now is teams would push their luck with the hope to negotiate their way out of the penalty that the regulation imposes. It is a slippery slope from on, for such.

Those problems started when they decided to allow pushing off the track.

If they would apply the rules and punish everyone who pushes someone off, we would have far less dicussions about it.

[Nitrodaze]

Me, and everyone watching have received the message in time. So i find it hard to believe mercedes didn't knew about it.

But clearly hamilton didn't knew about it, so something must have gone wrong there.

Many sketchy things have happened, both by hamilton and verstappen. I'm not sure i like this "let them race" approach. It looks often like no rules apply anymore.

Well, watch the replay. You would hear Horner telling Verstappen to give the place back as Hamilton was closing up to him and literally under his gearbox when Verstappen received the message to give the place back. Verstappen slows as he receives that message with Hamilton having nowhere to go. To be fair the message arrived in a very tight racing moment with the message only reaching Verstappen at the time.

To be fair, Verstappen did not have much time to give way but slowing was not the right thing to do in that circumstances. I am sure he could hear that Mercedes engine very clearly to know he was right behind him. A reprimand is probably the fair punishment.

If the message had not reached Verstappen at that moment, l am sure Hamilton would have been making the move to overtake just after that moment.

[Nitrodaze]

Those problems started when they decided to allow pushing off the track.

If they would apply the rules and punish everyone who pushes someone off, we would have far less dicussions about it.

Quite true. The rules are so badly blurred now, it is unclear what constitutes a punishable offence anymore. We had the repeat of the Sao Paolo defence which caused both drivers to go off track. Last time they found no fault. Of course, Verstappen rightly felt that was an allowable defensive move and tried it again. Only this time they asked him to give the place back. How confusing is that?

[Zico]

The problem with that approach is, it discourages teams from taking the initiative to give the place back but carry on until told otherwise. The stewards should not have to do that, the teams should recognize when their driver has broken a rule and take pre-emptive action of asking their driver to give the place back. They are encouraged to do that because when the stewards look at the incident, their only option should be to apply the penalty due.

What we have now is teams would push their luck with the hope to negotiate their way out of the penalty that the regulation imposes. It is a slippery slope from on, for such.

I do see your points and while some might argue that its the stewards job, I can also see that in clear cut cases, it shouldn't have to be. Their workload should be kept to a minimum where possible.
Whether we agree with it or not, they can't suddenly stop doing it... or at least not without notice. So in the interests of continuity, it was the right thing to do today IMO.

[gm99]

Well, watch the replay. You would hear Horner telling Verstappen to give the place back as Hamilton was closing up to him and literally under his gearbox when Verstappen received the message to give the place back. Verstappen slows as he receives that message with Hamilton having nowhere to go. To be fair the message arrived in a very tight racing moment with the message only reaching Verstappen at the time.

To be fair, Verstappen did not have much time to give way but slowing was not the right thing to do in that circumstances. I am sure he could hear that Mercedes engine very clearly to know he was right behind him. A reprimand is probably the fair punishment.

If the message had not reached Verstappen at that moment, l am sure Hamilton would have been making the move to overtake just after that moment.

We don't get to hear the radio messages on TV at the same time as they're transmitted to the drivers, but usually around 20 to 30 seconds delayed, as they are screened for inappropriate cntent first. So the message from Horner to Verstappen we heard just as the crash happened actually took place quite a bit earlier.
Of course, we still don't know when or if Hamilton was told of Verstappen's intention.

[Nitrodaze]

We don't get to hear the radio messages on TV at the same time as they're transmitted to the drivers, but usually around 20 to 30 seconds delayed, as they are screened for inappropriate cntent first. So the message from Horner to Verstappen we heard just as the crash happened actually took place quite a bit earlier.
Of course, we still don't know when or if Hamilton was told of Verstappen's intention.

Quite true. It appears Verstappen got the message much earlier. Since Horner had to confirm agreement to give the place up to Masi and subsequently told Verstappen to give the place up, in parallel to Masi informing Meadows of Mercedes that the place is being given up and that being relayed to Hamilton's engineer and thereafter to Hamilton. It is clear there was a considerable gap in the time it took for the message to reach Verstappen and the time it took to reach Hamilton. Unfortunately, the message reached Hamilton after Verstappen had reacted to the message he received and resulted in a crash before Hamilton received the message.

One interesting new fact was that they were approaching a DRS detection point just when Verstappen received that message. So I could see there would have been an urgency for Verstappen to slow down considerably so as not to go over the line before Hamilton passed him. If that had happened as planned, then Verstappen would have got DRS and would have been able to mount a counterattack to take the position back.

When looking at it with all the facts, it is becoming very clear that Verstappen caused the crash by reducing speed drastically with the hope of having the pass done before the DRS line. Under the circumstances, it is reasonable to expect that Hamilton would not have expected Verstappen to slow down by how much he reduced speed.