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  1. #151
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    Either Lewis genuinely did not know what was going on and was confused... or more likely didn't know 100% but still had a good idea, but also didn't want to pass him before the DRS line... while Max absolutely did want him to pass before it and so slowed down even further.
    Bit of a grey area as both essentially trying to achieve an advantage.. or not be disadvantaged by it depending on your POV.
    Until I see telemetry I'm not sure its clear cut who was most at fault so I think I'd just settle for racing incident.. something to learn from and also tighten up the rules.

    It reminds me of a similar-ish incident many years ago. Lewis being told to let someone (maybe Kimi?) pass at Spa iirc after achieving an off the track pass... but did so by positioning his car so that he could get a better exit and re-pass immediately.. which he did and subsequently was either told to let him pass again or was given a time penalty, can't remember which.

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  3. #152
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    Quote Originally Posted by Nitrodaze View Post

    One interesting new fact was that they were approaching a DRS detection point just when Verstappen received that message. So I could see there would have been an urgency for Verstappen to slow down considerably so as not to go over the line before Hamilton passed him. If that had happened as planned, then Verstappen would have got DRS and would have been able to mount a counterattack to take the position back.
    Of course, one could also say that this was the reason Hamilton didn't want to pass Verstappen prior to the DRS point.
    I tend to agree with Alex Wurz' assessment that they were both being a bit too clever there for their own good, Max in trying to make Lewis pass before the detection point, and Lewis in trying to avoid making the pass.
    Oct. 31, 1999 - one of the blackest days in motorsports.

  4. #153
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    Quote Originally Posted by Zico View Post
    Either Lewis genuinely did not know what was going on and was confused... or more likely didn't know 100% but still had a good idea, but also didn't want to pass him before the DRS line... while Max absolutely did want him to pass before it and so slowed down even further.
    Bit of a grey area as both essentially trying to achieve an advantage.. or not be disadvantaged by it depending on your POV.
    Until I see telemetry I'm not sure its clear cut who was most at fault so I think I'd just settle for racing incident.. something to learn from and also tighten up the rules.

    It reminds me of a similar-ish incident many years ago. Lewis being told to let someone (maybe Kimi?) pass at Spa iirc after achieving an off the track pass... but did so by positioning his car so that he could get a better exit and re-pass immediately.. which he did and subsequently was either told to let him pass again or was given a time penalty, can't remember which.
    I don't think this one qualifies as a racing incident. That would be introducing another grey area. The problem was Verstappen executed his plan poorly by slowing on the racing line. He was expecting Hamilton to pass on the dirty side of the track and to do so before the DRS line. That is why it backfired. There is no blame for trying to take advantage of the DRS to help regain the place. What he should have done was to get off the racing line and slowed. Hamilton would have zoomed by into the lead, then Verstappen would have received the DRS, cleaned his tyres before the DRS activation point which is a long way off. And then use the DRS to mount a counterattack.

    He fluffed it with a poor execution and caused an accident in the process.
    Better a witty fool than a foolish wit.
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  5. #154
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    Quote Originally Posted by Zico View Post
    Either Lewis genuinely did not know what was going on and was confused... or more likely didn't know 100% but still had a good idea, but also didn't want to pass him before the DRS line... while Max absolutely did want him to pass before it and so slowed down even further.
    Bit of a grey area as both essentially trying to achieve an advantage.. or not be disadvantaged by it depending on your POV.
    Until I see telemetry I'm not sure its clear cut who was most at fault so I think I'd just settle for racing incident.. something to learn from and also tighten up the rules.

    It reminds me of a similar-ish incident many years ago. Lewis being told to let someone (maybe Kimi?) pass at Spa iirc after achieving an off the track pass... but did so by positioning his car so that he could get a better exit and re-pass immediately.. which he did and subsequently was either told to let him pass again or was given a time penalty, can't remember which.
    I think it was a case of Max knowing and Lewis not knowing and because of that Lewis didn't want to overtake as he maybe thought there was an issue on track he couldn't see. Masi should have informed Mercedes first then RBR. Max wanted DRS,Lewis didn't know what was happening, Max brake tested Lewis so he would get DRS. It was dangerous from Max although I don't think his intention was to take Lewis out he just wanted DRS, however Max should have clearly moved over and let Lewis by, he didn't, and it's his responsibility to do so safely. I think Max should be disqualified. He has been dangerous too much this year and unless he is thought a lesson he's going to kill someone.
    Last edited by The Black Knight; 5th December 2021 at 21:51.

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  7. #155
    Senior Member N. Jones's Avatar
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    Max slowed down and either Lewis didn't know why or as mentioned he wanted to be past the DRS detection zone. Either way the penalty for the earlier offense plus the crash on his qualifying lap, plus Hamilton winning the past four races means we will see a new record for drivers championships at UAE.
    " Lady - I'm in an awful dilemma.
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  8. #156
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    Quote Originally Posted by Nitrodaze View Post
    I don't think this one qualifies as a racing incident. That would be introducing another grey area. The problem was Verstappen executed his plan poorly by slowing on the racing line. He was expecting Hamilton to pass on the dirty side of the track and to do so before the DRS line. That is why it backfired. There is no blame for trying to take advantage of the DRS to help regain the place. What he should have done was to get off the racing line and slowed. Hamilton would have zoomed by into the lead, then Verstappen would have received the DRS, cleaned his tyres before the DRS activation point which is a long way off. And then use the DRS to mount a counterattack.

    He fluffed it with a poor execution and caused an accident in the process.

    If there is, its a fair point but I'm not sure a specific rule that says you must go off the racing line to let someone past?

    Max wanted Lewis to pass before the DRS line while trying to be cute by leaving just enough space for him to pass, he likely made it tight so that Lewis wouldn't fly past him... so that he could stay close going onto the straight.

    Meanwhile Lewis probably didn't want to pass before the DRS and just stuck behind him... so Max changed down or let off further to try and make him which took Lewis by surprise.

    Both playing games.. Max's fault ..IF..he brake checked him. If he didn't it would probably be a difficult one for the stewards to pin on him considering he was told to give the place back.

    Might be totally wrong with what really happened, that's just how it looks to me. Haven't seen any telemetry, nor 100% sure on specific rules that might apply here.. so still forming an opinion on it.

  9. #157
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    Quote Originally Posted by Zico View Post
    If there is, its a fair point but I'm not sure a specific rule that says you must go off the racing line to let someone past?

    Max wanted Lewis to pass before the DRS line while trying to be cute by leaving just enough space for him to pass, he likely made it tight so that Lewis wouldn't fly past him... so that he could stay close going onto the straight.

    Meanwhile Lewis probably didn't want to pass before the DRS and just stuck behind him... so Max changed down or let off further to try and make him which took Lewis by surprise.

    Both playing games.. Max's fault ..IF..he brake checked him. If he didn't it would probably be a difficult one for the stewards to pin on him considering he was told to give the place back.

    Might be totally wrong with what really happened, that's just how it looks to me. Haven't seen any telemetry, nor 100% sure on specific rules that might apply here.. so still forming an opinion on it.
    You are right. There isn't a specific rule on how to give a place when instructed to do so. But that is not the point though. Judging by how very close Hamilton was behind him, slowing on the racing line was always going to result in Hamilton crashing into him. It could have turned out bad for Verstappen too. With rear tyre puncture or damage to the rear of the Redbull car. His intentions were clear, braking suddenly and as hard as he did was dangerous and why he is under investigation.
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  10. #158
    Senior Member truefan72's Avatar
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    I think we can all agree that the racing director and the stewards were awful. Not notifying both teams at the same time or even the aggrieved one first is just poor


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  12. #159
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    Quote Originally Posted by N. Jones View Post
    Max slowed down and either Lewis didn't know why or as mentioned he wanted to be past the DRS detection zone. Either way the penalty for the earlier offense plus the crash on his qualifying lap, plus Hamilton winning the past four races means we will see a new record for drivers championships at UAE.
    Not necessarily so. The Redbull was just as quick as the Mercedes on a track where most of us thought Mercedes would romp off into the distance leaving Verstappen in their wake. If was not so. Verstappen was just as quick as Hamilton for all of the race. Verstappen had a very untidy race this weekend. He obviously is trying too hard and making desperate moves. Abu Dhabi is a more even track and we shall see Redbull very strong there too. If they want to beat the mighty Mercedes, they have to operate a meticulous race. They have the speed to cause an upset. But they cannot expect it to easily lamnd on their laps. They have to do better than they did at Jeddah
    Better a witty fool than a foolish wit.
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  13. #160
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    What are everyones thoughts on the track for F1?

    Some drivers loved it, others less so, its fast and offers a different challenge from most others but clearly can bite as we expected and witnessed. no run offs, potentially dangerous.


    Should it be on the Calender next year?

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