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  1. #181
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    Quote Originally Posted by The Black Knight View Post
    It's ridiculous. They actually admit in the notes that he braked erratically - a sudden 2.4g deceleration. I can't see how this is anything other than an attempt to take your opponent out. This should be an automatic disqualification. This type of dangerous, potentially lethal driving, does not belong in F1.
    Verstappen drove this race like he was let out of an asylum. He got away with so many infractions, the stewards did not deal each them as they would normally. So he is encouraged to drive putting other drivers at risk. He overtook off the track, ran Hamilton off the track and brake tested him. If any other driver had done all of these things in one race, they would have been shown the warning flag and subsequently the black flag. All the decisions taken by the steward's office were calculated to have as little impact on him[Versdtappen] as possible.

    I remain adamant that they are on the take. The negotiation of penalty to give Verstappen between Masi and Horner is a very clear indication of that. Rather than apply the rules they invested more time in trying to find a penalty that was acceptable to Redbull.
    Last edited by Nitrodaze; 6th December 2021 at 11:03.
    Better a witty fool than a foolish wit.
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  2. Likes: truefan72 (7th December 2021)
  3. #182
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    Quote Originally Posted by airshifter View Post
    Yep. Good for those of us that wait for facts rather than speculation.

    It still makes no sense though unless Max thought he would just come through. Why risk the collision when it's possible that you could be the one that comes out on the worst end?
    Most of the time we have seen incidents like this in the past it has been the following driver that runs into the back of the car in front that comes out worse. Luckily it didn't end up ala Coulthard-Schumacher 1998. It would have been a shame for the championship to finish that way. Spa 1998 was brain fade from Coulthard, last night I think was intentional from Max as he could clearly see how close Lewis was in his mirrors. Unfortunately because this is now just a slap on the wrist for Verstappen I think he won't learn anything and he could possibly try to take Lewis out next weekend in Abu Dhabi. He still has the advantage of more wins. At minimum he should have received a 10 place grid drop for AD but I think disqualification from this race would have been the most appropriate action.

    Quote Originally Posted by Zico View Post
    So he did brake.. fair enough. In that case Max is guilty as charged. If he was going to brake to try and make Lewis pass before the DRS line he should have been fully over to the right IMO.
    Agreed.
    Last edited by The Black Knight; 6th December 2021 at 11:09.

  4. #183
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    Quote Originally Posted by Nitrodaze View Post
    Verstappen drove this race like he was let out of an asylum. He got away with so many infractions, the stewards did not deal each them as they would normally. So he is encouraged to drive putting other drivers at risk. He overtook off the track, ran Hamilton off the track and brake tested him. If any other driver had done all of these things in one race, they would have been shown the warning flag and subsequently the black flag. All the decisions taken by the steward's office were calculated to have as little impact on him[Versdtappen] as possible.

    I remain adamant that they are on the take. The negotiation of penalty to give Verstappen between Masi and Horner is a very clear indication of that. Rather than apply the rules they invested more time in trying to find a penalty that was acceptable to Redbull.
    Imagine a referee negotiating with a competitor. This is effectively what happened last night. I think it must be a requirement moving forward that any incidents like this ALL get investigated and decided by the Stewards. Have multiple Steward teams if necessary per race and delegated different incidents to them. There doesn't just have to be one. Utter nonsense negotiating with them like that.

  5. Likes: truefan72 (7th December 2021)
  6. #184
    Senior Member F1nKS's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by nitrodaze View Post
    actually, there were lots of great wheel to wheel crashing at this race.
    fify,

  7. #185
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    Quote Originally Posted by F1nKS View Post
    fify,
    We had doubts at Baku, what great races, that venue produced. We would warm to Jeddah in time. It is different, quirky and nerve-wracking. But pure adrenaline racing
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  8. #186
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    Quote Originally Posted by denkimi View Post
    I feel the biggest one at fault here is mercedes for not informing hamilton on time.

    if you look at the footage, verstappen has already slowed down from 8th to 3th gear before he even started braking. Hamilton was already down from 8th to 5th. After that verstappen braked at about 50%.
    So it wasn't like verstappen breaked suddenly or actually hard, it was just hamilton staying right behind because he didn't want to overtake, because he wasn't aware.

    I feel it was stupid from max not to move more to the side, but in the end i stay with race incident.
    I had mentioned that Max had geared down 5 times , but I hadn't seen that Lewis was gearing down as well , so can we then surmise that Hamilton actually knew what Max was doing ?
    He actually knew Max was slowing down to let him by , which is not what he implied when he said he didn't get the message from the team until after the incident .

    He may not have had official word from the team , but it seems like he was wise to the gambit Max was trying to work as he was also gearing down to more match Max's speed .

    Both drivers were aware , clearly , that the first to cross the DRS line was at a distinct disadvantage . Both were slowing .
    Max was not obligated to be on one side or other of the track , so chose the cleanest line and stayed there , leaving his opponent the least advantage he could .

    Lewis approached , saw Max slowing , and slowed down , himself , and closed up tight .
    Now , he wouldn't have known Max would press the whoa pedal , but he really didn't need to be directly behind him or that close , especially if he already suspected Max and he were in a race to slow down before the line .

    As for Max , touching the brakes was over the line . Not cool .

    Until that point in that incident , blame the stupid DRS , with it's stupid DRS line for prompting the drivers to be stupid .

  9. #187
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    Quote Originally Posted by Bagwan View Post
    I had mentioned that Max had geared down 5 times , but I hadn't seen that Lewis was gearing down as well , so can we then surmise that Hamilton actually knew what Max was doing ?
    He actually knew Max was slowing down to let him by , which is not what he implied when he said he didn't get the message from the team until after the incident .

    He may not have had official word from the team , but it seems like he was wise to the gambit Max was trying to work as he was also gearing down to more match Max's speed .

    Both drivers were aware , clearly , that the first to cross the DRS line was at a distinct disadvantage . Both were slowing .
    Max was not obligated to be on one side or other of the track , so chose the cleanest line and stayed there , leaving his opponent the least advantage he could .

    Lewis approached , saw Max slowing , and slowed down , himself , and closed up tight .
    Now , he wouldn't have known Max would press the whoa pedal , but he really didn't need to be directly behind him or that close , especially if he already suspected Max and he were in a race to slow down before the line .

    As for Max , touching the brakes was over the line . Not cool .

    Until that point in that incident, blame the stupid DRS , with it's stupid DRS line for prompting the drivers to be stupid .
    It was established that the information that Verstappen was asked to give the place back to Hamilton had not reached Hamilton at the point when Verstappen was slowing down. Hence, he would not have known why Verstappen was slowing down. There might be a debris on the track for instance.

    The slowing down was not the issue, it was the sudden braking that immediately followed that caused Hamilton to crash into the back of him. The braking was clear in the relative telemetry and the reason why he was found to be at fault.
    Better a witty fool than a foolish wit.
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  10. Likes: truefan72 (7th December 2021)
  11. #188
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    We have criticized Verstappen for some things. What we have not done is praise him for some of the great driving that he did during the race. He move to take the lead from 3rd at the restart after the Mazpin, Perez crashes, was brilliant. That was the sort of move that we typically praise Hamilton for. But the seven-time champion was comprehensively made to look ordinary off the start.
    Better a witty fool than a foolish wit.
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  12. #189
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    Quote Originally Posted by Bagwan View Post
    I had mentioned that Max had geared down 5 times , but I hadn't seen that Lewis was gearing down as well , so can we then surmise that Hamilton actually knew what Max was doing ?
    He actually knew Max was slowing down to let him by , which is not what he implied when he said he didn't get the message from the team until after the incident .

    He may not have had official word from the team , but it seems like he was wise to the gambit Max was trying to work as he was also gearing down to more match Max's speed .

    Both drivers were aware , clearly , that the first to cross the DRS line was at a distinct disadvantage . Both were slowing .
    Max was not obligated to be on one side or other of the track , so chose the cleanest line and stayed there , leaving his opponent the least advantage he could .

    Lewis approached , saw Max slowing , and slowed down , himself , and closed up tight .
    Now , he wouldn't have known Max would press the whoa pedal , but he really didn't need to be directly behind him or that close , especially if he already suspected Max and he were in a race to slow down before the line .

    As for Max , touching the brakes was over the line . Not cool .

    Until that point in that incident , blame the stupid DRS , with it's stupid DRS line for prompting the drivers to be stupid .
    Spot on.

    For me, both knew exactly what game they were both playing. Ultimately Max just messed up when trying to force Lewis to pass..

    Despite what Lewis said publicly about not being told what was to happen, there can be little doubt that he knew Max would be told to give the place back, he isn't stupid.. he has a sharp racing brain. While I might not be buying his official explanation for a sec, neither am I blaming him for it.

    Having to play silly DRS advantage games shouldn't be part of F1 but it is pretty much inevitable due to its mere existence.
    Deactivating the DRS for both drivers for a lap in such a situation might be an idea worth looking into.

  13. #190
    Senior Member N. Jones's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Nitrodaze View Post
    Not necessarily so. The Redbull was just as quick as the Mercedes on a track where most of us thought Mercedes would romp off into the distance leaving Verstappen in their wake. If was not so. Verstappen was just as quick as Hamilton for all of the race. Verstappen had a very untidy race this weekend. He obviously is trying too hard and making desperate moves. Abu Dhabi is a more even track and we shall see Redbull very strong there too. If they want to beat the mighty Mercedes, they have to operate a meticulous race. They have the speed to cause an upset. But they cannot expect it to easily lamnd on their laps. They have to do better than they did at Jeddah
    I know but I think Lewis is going to take it.
    " Lady - I'm in an awful dilemma.
    Moe - Yeah, I never cared much for these foreign cars either."

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