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  1. #771
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    Quote Originally Posted by cali View Post
    Long answer completely derailed from my point but oh please do go on
    Did it derail from your point or just disagree? Can you justify that lack of Rally1 privateers is purely a cost issue?

    Having the COSTS delusion seems to be closely tied to the view that privateers should be at Rally1 in the first place. FIA does not share your dream, so why apply this delusion why you aren't seeing your dream?

  2. #772
    Senior Member cali's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by WRCStan View Post
    Did it derail from your point or just disagree? Can you justify that lack of Rally1 privateers is purely a cost issue?

    Having the COSTS delusion seems to be closely tied to the view that privateers should be at Rally1 in the first place. FIA does not share your dream, so why apply this delusion why you aren't seeing your dream?
    Privateers have been using factory or ex-factory cars for ages and it has diversified the field a lot in the past. Now the cars and most importantly spare parts are so expensive that this isn't really affordable.
    Getting from Rally2 car to WRC/Rally1 car has been proven very difficult for most drivers, only exception being Rovanperä. The others who have tried needed more seat time but failed to get it. Why? You guessed it!

    And yes, derailed.

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    Last edited by cali; 2nd July 2022 at 15:37.

  3. #773
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    Quote Originally Posted by cali View Post
    Getting from Rally2 car to WRC/Rally1 car has been proven very difficult for most drivers, only exception being Rovanperä. The others who have tried needed more seat time but failed to get it. Why? You guessed it!
    Because there are only a handful of Cat II competition-build Rally1 cars, that only run on WRC rounds (and not on regional/national champs), by the manufacturers themselves - all by design for being international TV entertainment as promotion.

    Not just because people didn't have the budget to get seat time at, for example, Toyota.
    Last edited by WRCStan; 2nd July 2022 at 16:19. Reason: just - I don't disagree 100% on the costs thing

  4. #774
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    Going back to my derailed post, if an F1 nut could break down the car manufacturer and non-car manufacturer teams and who the paid and pay-for drivers are it would be interesting.

    Maybe in a relevant thread too, I don't know which by now.

  5. #775
    Senior Member cali's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by WRCStan View Post
    Because there are only a handful of Cat II competition-build Rally1 cars, that only run on WRC rounds (and not on regional/national champs), by the manufacturers themselves - all by design for being international TV entertainment as promotion.

    Not just because people didn't have the budget to get seat time at, for example, Toyota.
    You have your right and I disagree with it.
    If you think this model is sustainable and overall the way it should be, fine.
    For my liking I would like to have more privateers and they're gone. With current situation in hand (too expensive!) this will never be sustainable for privateers.


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  6. Likes: AndyRAC (2nd July 2022)
  7. #776
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    Quote Originally Posted by cali View Post
    If you think this model is sustainable and overall the way it should be, fine.
    I don't think it's the way it should be and FWIW I agree it is too expensive for many privateers.

    But I'm not sure you're understanding that the access privateers currently have is coincidental. It appears Hyundai, like Toyota, don't offer drives for sale. If Ford brought rally inhouse, and still even if Citroen, Fiat, Dacia, Tesla... then join in the same fashion, there could be a situation where there's zero seats that any amount of privateer money can buy. And the FIA would not give one shiny shit because WRC is not there to provide a fair sporting opportunity, it is a commercial championship where Rally1 is designed around the promotion of car manufacturers. I'm not sure why you would choose to disagree with that.
    Last edited by WRCStan; 2nd July 2022 at 20:32.

  8. #777
    Senior Member cali's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by WRCStan View Post
    I don't think it's the way it should be and FWIW I agree it is too expensive for many privateers.

    But I'm not sure you're understanding that the access privateers currently have is coincidental. It appears Hyundai, like Toyota, don't offer drives for sale. If Ford brought rally inhouse, and still even if Citroen, Fiat, Dacia, Tesla... then join in the same fashion, there could be a situation where there's zero seats that any amount of privateer money can buy. And the FIA would not give one shiny shit because WRC is not there to provide a fair sporting opportunity, it is a commercial championship where Rally1 is designed around the promotion of car manufacturers. I'm not sure why you would choose to disagree with that.
    For M-Sport it's vital to sell/rent cars. It's affecting them a lot, this current situation.
    Not so many 2017 cars are on the stages as well and you guessed it, there's no point to drive these cars on national rallyes. Why? You guessed again!

    Btw I agree with your last point - it's too commercial and non-reachable for normal people and it starts with the rules and results of being too expensive.

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  9. Likes: AndyRAC (2nd July 2022)
  10. #778
    Senior Member AnttiL's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by cali View Post
    Please look for VHS rallies. Plenty of private local entries in gr B (fyi Tabaton etc). Not gonna argue much but it's not any better now.
    And the arguement isn't that past is better or the opposite but we are missing competent privateer field which was giving us far more diversity. Today we get 3-4 top guys and sponsored drivers.

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    There might have been some Italian privateers in Sanremo, but not much other competitive ones. And some of them were like semi-factory drivers, just doing a national series.

  11. #779
    Senior Member cali's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by AnttiL View Post
    There might have been some Italian privateers in Sanremo, but not much other competitive ones. And some of them were like semi-factory drivers, just doing a national series.
    Well we got Serderidis now

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    Last edited by cali; 2nd July 2022 at 21:24.

  12. #780
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    Quote Originally Posted by AnttiL View Post
    There might have been some Italian privateers in Sanremo, but not much other competitive ones. And some of them were like semi-factory drivers, just doing a national series.
    From the top of my mind, I recall these small programs (from ewrc-results, I wasn't even born during Group B):
    Lampi, Eklund, Grissmann, Buffum (Audi)
    Vudafieri, Biasion (Lancia, even though Jolly Club was a sort of semi-works team)
    Turiani, Recordati, Iwase (Opel)
    Eklund (Austin Rover, I don't know how official was his entry)
    Meylan, Iwashita (Nissan)
    many Citroen Visa

    Most of them could only dream of competing with top teams, but could achieve top 5 places when there was high attrition. Actually some group A cars, especially works Golf of Eriksson, could achieve the same good results with high attrition or lower entries.

  13. Likes: cali (2nd July 2022)

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