NETFLIX - Schumacher

[Nitrodaze]

Quite true. I've never understood the arguments and really none of them won multiple WDC's in crap cars, and nobody ever will.

The most we can judge directly is against the same team... and even that gets skewed quite a bit from time to time.

All the drivers with the big records were fortunate enough to end up on a dominant team at one point or another, and that is how their records kept climbing. That being said, there has been a lot of talent through the F1 field over time, and the drivers raised the bar quite a bit over the years. As for drivers vs the era they raced in, a totally different game over the years. As more tech creeped in, there was a lot more brain power vs just straight up driving skill. The new cars are fairly complex with a lot of things to keep track of, but I'm not sure the drivers that came up through the current era could take earlier cars to the pace they were pushed to either.


But no matter what.... people will still look for the best. I'd definitely include Schumacher up in the list, and probably within the top 3. But the numbers alone don't add up to great drivers IMHO.

You make a very valid point. But l would add those past drivers may find current cars a challenge also. The Playstation generation of drivers would certainly have an edge on them. And yes, those F1 cars of old without power steering were very physical to drive. The slight stature of the PlayStation generation of drivers would suggest that they may struggle against those drivers of past generations in their cars.

We can only really do a relative comparison of the greatness of drivers in their respective eras. It comes down to accomplishments. Multiple world champions of seven race seasons cannot be fairly compared to multiple champions of 22 race seasons. Though the car has got much easier to drive compared to the car of past eras. We only have records to go with really. On that front, we cannot dispute Hamilton's clear superiority. But only marginal to Schumacher, hence l am more inclined to call both men the joint GOATs of F1.

[Nitrodaze]

To put things into perspective, if F1 was purely talent based like some other sports and accessible to the whole worlds population, there is probably a fairly high chance that none of the current drivers would have made it onto the grid.

I agree with most of your arguments. But unfortunately disagree with the last part of your argument. The crop of racing drivers that make it onto the F1 grid, have come through various levels of fierce junior racing series where only highly talented drivers at these junior series make it through the ranks to be selected to have a seat in F1. From the very tough Go Kart series where so many really talented drivers do not make it through, to the various junior feeder series where a great many talented drivers do not make it to F1.

Just check out this go kart race to appreciate the level of talent that F1 drivers have to come through.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=xDgpS4kx88s

Getting into F1 is so incredibly hard. It takes great talent or billionaire dads to get into F1. For those that come from humble backgrounds, it has taken them immense sacrifices to land an F1 drive. These sorts of drivers are without any doubt the best drivers all the junior racing series has to offer. At any time, they represent the best drivers in the world. To dismiss their life journeys and sacrifices, dishonour them.

That said, there is always some doubt that other drivers in the grid in less dominant cars may have achieved the same things, given the chance in a dominant car. On the current grid, Russell or Leclerc or Norris or Gasly or Sainz in a Mercedes for instance. I remember us saying the same thing of Bottas in the Williams years ago. And how he has found Hamilton such a challenge with his opportunity.

Hence, to be great in F1 is not a fluke. I also do not think Vettel is representative of all multiple champions. Clearly, four consecutive title wins have burnt him out. The hunger of his early years in no longer there. That is not to suggest that he is an ordinary driver by any means.

[Zico]

I agree with most of your arguments. But unfortunately disagree with the last part of your argument. The crop of racing drivers that make it onto the F1 grid, have come through various levels of fierce junior racing series where only highly talented drivers at these junior series make it through the ranks to be selected to have a seat in F1. From the very tough Go Kart series where so many really talented drivers do not make it through, to the various junior feeder series where a great many talented drivers do not make it to F1.

Just check out this go kart race to appreciate the level of talent that F1 drivers have to come through.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=xDgpS4kx88s

Getting into F1 is so incredibly hard. It takes great talent or billionaire dads to get into F1. For those that come from humble backgrounds, it has taken them immense sacrifices to land an F1 drive. These sorts of drivers are without any doubt the best drivers all the junior racing series has to offer. At any time, they represent the best drivers in the world. To dismiss their life journeys and sacrifices, dishonour them.

That said, there is always some doubt that other drivers in the grid in less dominant cars may have achieved the same things, given the chance in a dominant car. On the current grid, Russell or Leclerc or Norris or Gasly or Sainz in a Mercedes for instance. I remember us saying the same thing of Bottas in the Williams years ago. And how he has found Hamilton such a challenge with his opportunity.

Hence, to be great in F1 is not a fluke. I also do not think Vettel is representative of all multiple champions. Clearly, four consecutive title wins have burnt him out. The hunger of his early years in no longer there. That is not to suggest that he is an ordinary driver by any means.

I know how much of a hero Hamilton is too you so I didn't expect you to agree and that's fine.

No matter which way you try to look at it, it is still a very rich mans sport, there is just no escaping that fact. Even if a relatively poor kid such as Lewis was good enough to shine brighter than the <1% of the worlds millionaires sons population with their huge financial advantage of having the very best of equipment, he still only shone brighter than a tiny, tiny percentage of rich kids.

Compare that to any purely athletics based sport that is not wealth/equipment based and the talent pool size of many hundreds of times the size to stand out in, to get recognised, it is just not comparable. Another layer on top of that is the being in the right car.. the dominant car at the right time aspect and how long that dominant spell is, that weakens any WDC winners achievements even further in my eyes.
There have been some great drivers in F1 over the years but I just cant look at any of them in quite the same way that some of you do, for that reason.

[Nitrodaze]

I know how much of a hero Hamilton is too you so I didn't expect you to agree and that's fine.

No matter which way you try to look at it, it is still a very rich mans sport, there is just no escaping that fact. Even if a relatively poor kid such as Lewis was good enough to shine brighter than the <1% of the worlds millionaires sons population with their huge financial advantage of having the very best of equipment, he still only shone brighter than a tiny, tiny percentage of rich kids.

Compare that to any purely athletics based sport that is not wealth/equipment based and the talent pool size of many hundreds of times the size to stand out in, to get recognised, it is just not comparable. Another layer on top of that is the being in the right car.. the dominant car at the right time aspect and how long that dominant spell is, that weakens any WDC winners achievements even further in my eyes.
There have been some great drivers in F1 over the years but I just cant look at any of them in quite the same way that some of you do, for that reason.

Your comment is not aimed at Hamilton specifically but all F1 champions. Any motor racing series is also broadly in the crosshairs of your comment. So you are essentially saying all motorsport is crap. And all drivers in those series are privileged few in very limited seats for each of those series.

I think you should stop a moment and think about what you are saying.

[airshifter]

Your comment is not aimed at Hamilton specifically but all F1 champions. Any motor racing series is also broadly in the crosshairs of your comment. So you are essentially saying all motorsport is crap. And all drivers in those series are privileged few in very limited seats for each of those series.

I think you should stop a moment and think about what you are saying.

Those are facts.

Even at the amateur levels of most motorsport, money is always a factor. Those who do it just for fun often have family and friends that help support them, and even then it can reach a point of spreading people thin very quickly.

Anyone who has ever raced in any organized motorsport would probably agree.

What we get to watch are the fortunate few that had a support system that often sacrificed a great deal to give them a shot at it. And being that competition for open wheeled series generally starts at very young ages, the parents are often working their tails off to give their kids a chance at doing something they enjoy. For every one driver we consider great, there are probably dozens and dozens more that would have been just as good if they had the opportunity. That is no dishonor or disrespect to anyone, it's the reality of motor racing.

[Nitrodaze]

Those are facts.

Even at the amateur levels of most motorsport, money is always a factor. Those who do it just for fun often have family and friends that help support them, and even then it can reach a point of spreading people thin very quickly.

Anyone who has ever raced in any organized motorsport would probably agree.

What we get to watch are the fortunate few that had a support system that often sacrificed a great deal to give them a shot at it. And being that competition for open wheeled series generally starts at very young ages, the parents are often working their tails off to give their kids a chance at doing something they enjoy. For every one driver we consider great, there are probably dozens and dozens more that would have been just as good if they had the opportunity. That is no dishonor or disrespect to anyone, it's the reality of motor racing.

I totally agree with you. Motorsport is based on equipment that is usually not cheap. At the junior levels of racing, it is a Darwinian environment where only the fittest survive. It is not an easy environment that gives all and sundry a chance to prove themselves. It is an environment that demands financial commitment, dedication to improvement and determination to succeed. Of the many that actually step up to partake in the junior formulas and feeder series, only a very small few actually progress into the higher formulas. As they have to compete with the best from similar series from other nations for seats in the higher formulas. It is a very tough progression that sees some very talented drivers fall to the wayside at every progression stage.

This is common to all equipment based sport, from bicycle racing to motorbike racing to canoe racing to horse racing to yacht racing etc.

Apart from the billionaire sons drivers, every driver you see on the F1 grid has excelled through all of the progression stages leading up to F1 on the merit of their extraordinary talents. They are essentially the best all the junior series around the world have to produce. And these F1 places are only available to a few.

The system is as it is to ensure only the very best reaches the very pinnacle of motorsport. To have a chance to be in this glorious few, everyone is invited to take the various test and tribulations to qualify to be in F1. Hence, it is pointless saying there may be people out there that may be better. This an equipment sport. They have to go through the system to prove they are good enough for a start. And then show they are better against the crop of f1 drivers they have to compete with.

Firstly they have to raise funds to go kart racing to show they have what it takes. It is expensive, but that is the way it is. You have to find funds to prove your worth. This is the reason why Hamilton is such a wonderful success story. It will probably be a long time before we see another black driver on the F1 grid. When they do, they usually grab the opportunity with both hands and produce something sensational.

[The Black Knight]

You assume the Mercedes car remained the same since the Schumacher years. The regulations for subsequent years after Schumacher left Mercedes meant Rosberg and Hamilton had to help redefine the car for subsequent regulations. So it would be grossly unfair to attribute all of Mercedes subsequent improvements to Schumacher alone. But that is not to say he was not instrumental in steering Mercedes in the right direction in their early days. The Mercedes was not a dominant car until the engine changed to the hybrid format. Most of Mercedes early strength was in their engine and Redbull still had the best chassis but underpowered Renault engines. Most of the progress on the Mercedes chassis happened after Schumacher and Ross Brawn had left. It took three seasons into the hybrid era before Mercedes got their cornering speed sorted. By 2018, they were just as fast as Redbull through the twisties.

I am a huge fan of Schumacher mind you. On who is the GOAT in F1, is an open debate. But one thing is certain, it is jointly shared between Schumacher and Hamilton at the moment. With Hamilton marginally ahead on records. How they accomplished their title wins is quite similar to a large extent. Hence, it is very much a matter of personal preference at the moment.

Mercedes start working on their 2014 car in 2011 so Schumacher was involved in that car, however, the structure put in place by Ross Brawn and Schumacher at the time largely remains to this day. I disagree that Hamilton and Schumacher are comparable in this aspect. Schumacher had to work a lot harder for his success than Hamilton did. Hamilton came into a team in 2013 where the structural foundations required to spring them to 7 World Championships were largely in place and a car for 2014 that was well on its way to completion. In 1996 Schumacher came into a Ferrari team that was a heap and with a donkey car managed to win 3 races. Hamilton has never impressed me the way Schumacher did. He managed to win a race in 2013 while his teammate won 3 and in 2011 was soundly beaten by Jenson. This didn't happen to Schumacher in his prime. While there is no doubt Hamilton walks with the Greats of the sport he is not in my top 5.

[Nitrodaze]

Mercedes start working on their 2014 car in 2011 so Schumacher was involved in that car, however, the structure put in place by Ross Brawn and Schumacher at the time largely remains to this day. I disagree that Hamilton and Schumacher are comparable in this aspect. Schumacher had to work a lot harder for his success than Hamilton did. Hamilton came into a team in 2013 where the structural foundations required to spring them to 7 World Championships were largely in place and a car for 2014 that was well on its way to completion. In 1996 Schumacher came into a Ferrari team that was a heap and with a donkey car managed to win 3 races. Hamilton has never impressed me the way Schumacher did. He managed to win a race in 2013 while his teammate won 3 and in 2011 was soundly beaten by Jenson. This didn't happen to Schumacher in his prime. While there is no doubt Hamilton walks with the Greats of the sport he is not in my top 5.

Like l said, it was a personal perspective you took. Objectively, Hamilton is easily in the top five, even the top three.

On the Mercedes, by 2013 the Mercedes car was showing signs of marked improvement in the chassis. But was still inferior to the Redbull, Ferrari and Mclaren. The car was by no means completely refined by the time Hamilton joined Mercedes. It could not have been as the engine of the 2014 regulations was quite different from the 2013 engine. Hence the 2014 chassis had to be significantly different from the pre-2014 chassis. i.e. making room for the electric power unit, changes to cooling requirements of the engine and structure changes introduced by the 2014 regulations implied the 2014 car was quite different to the cars that Schumacher drove for Mercedes.

It is interesting you are quoting mostly irrelevant periods of Hamilton's career development. His period of distractions from girlfriends etc. Also, you do not accommodate the fact that the journey of both men took completely different paths. While Schumacher's path was via Benetton where he won his first two titles and swiftly moved to Ferrari where he won five more. Hamilton won his first at Mclaren that soon after progressively depreciated in performance to what became Hamilton's lean years.

We can selectively pick reasons for why one is better than the other depending on who you personally favour. I think they are both equally brilliant and in my mind the joint GOAT of F1. The lovely thing about that is it gives everyone a choice of GOAT.

[The Black Knight]

Like l said, it was a personal perspective you took. Objectively, Hamilton is easily in the top five, even the top three.

On the Mercedes, by 2013 the Mercedes car was showing signs of marked improvement in the chassis. But was still inferior to the Redbull, Ferrari and Mclaren. The car was by no means completely refined by the time Hamilton joined Mercedes.

It is interesting you are quoting mostly irrelevant periods of Hamilton's career development. His period of distractions from girlfriends etc. Also, you do not accommodate the fact that the journey of both men took completely different paths. While Schumacher's path was via Benetton where he won his first title and swiftly moved to Ferrari where he won six more. Hamilton won his first at Mclaren that soon after progressively depreciated in performance to what became Hamilton's lean years.

We can selectively pick reasons for why one is better than the other depending on who you personally favour. I think they are both equally brilliant and in my mind the joint GOAT of F1. The lovely thing about that is it gives everyone a choice of GOAT.

I don't really get your point here as there was parallel development going on between Mercedes 2014 and 2013 car. Mercedes never really put huge development into 2013. Hamilton doesn't receive a get out of jail card just because he has girlfriends. Schumacher also had a girlfriend, turned wife and then kids and his focus never swayed. He was beaten by Button, end of. In 2016 he gets a get out of jail card because it was clearly reliability which cost him the world title.

We'll have to agree to differ. I really don't think Hamilton is and has ever been on the same level as Schumacher. Hamilton showed flashes of brilliance here and there but nothing compared to what Schumacher was able to do on a consistent basis. It's hard to even begin to count the number of races Schumacher won out of sheer brilliance throughout the years in an inferior car. Hamilton did this as well from time to time just not nearly as often.

[denkimi]

What makes hamilton stand out to me as one of the greatest of all times is not his 6 titles with mercedes, but his very first year with mclaren in 2007.
Coming into the sport as a rookie and ending equal to alonso, who is considered one of the best drivers of the last 2 decades and who had just won the 2 previous championships.
Missing the title by only 1 point in his rookie year, and winning it in his second.

That was an extraordinary achievement, far more than winning titles with a car that was a second faster than all the rest.