2021 - Race 14 Itallian GP at Monza

[truefan72]

It is funny how those referencing Palmer only focus on the Gio bit. Not verstappen essentially shoving off Massa a couple of seasons prior, which was practically identical to what he attempted on Sunday. Mind you in that same race, he tried to pass Massa foolishly again at retofilo and got a puncture for that attempt. Despite his bullish driving and moaning, the stewards deemed it a racing incident. It shows that the guy never learns and is still reckless and a danger to others. Still crickets on his lack of sportsmanship towards checking on Hamilton. I cant even imagine the vitriol if the situation was reverse.


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

[Nitrodaze]

It is funny how those referencing Palmer only ficus on the Gio bit. Not verstappen essentially shoving off Massa a couple of seasons prior, which was practically identical to what he attempted on Sunday. Mind you in that same race, he tried to pass Massa foolishly again at retofilo and got a puncture for that attempt. Despite his bullish driving and moaning the stewards deemed it a racing incident. It shows that the guy never learns and is still reckless and a danger to others. Still crickets on his lack of sportsmanship towards checking on Hamilton. I cant even imagine the vitriol if the situation was reverse.


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

Ha ha , tell me about it. The Anti-Hamilton brigade would be up in arms with all manner of castigations.

[F1nKS]

I agree it was a racing incident. No racing is clean per se. But the onus lies with the attacker to not cause a collision. Because that is where his racecraft is expressed; to attack and overtake cleanly. It is not ok if the attacker crashes into the defender who is perfectly entitled to defend.

Hence Hamilton getting a penalty in GB and Verstappen getting the penality in Monza.

And to say it is mature to give Verstappen a taste of his own bad driving is immature is ridiculous. This is the only way to convey his feelings about how Verstappen is being reckless.

Mature driver would have had the long game in mind - Hamilton whether Verstappen came out of the corner in front or not, was going to be ahead of him at the end of the race. So in the end, not a bad result for Verstappen to be shown "feelings", when it clear he was in the 3rd best car this weekend.

[Average Sim Racer]

I think if he was not trying to force a space to open up for him, he should know that Hamilton was going to squeeze him and he should have taken the escape route in order not to damage the car. But Verstappen did not mind the car been damaged or that a crash would occur. It was within Hamilton's right to close the door on Verstappen. To suggest that he had to give space is ridiculous. He did not as Verstappen did not have to give space when he squeezed Hamilton off the track at the beginning of the race.

I would like to know how much Redbull has paid to fix damages resulting from crashes alone this season. I am sure it is the highest in the paddock.

I think Hamilton is still being very gentle. He is not driving at the level of aggression that he was when he was duelling with Rosberg. As a result, Verstappen is taking liberties. And he has now escalated it to the point where the FIA and F1M need to be particularly concerned. Because the next step is Hamilton is going to escalate his racing to match what Verstappen has just done and probably more. And the next time, Verstappen would be experiencing a similar situation. Only he might get killed in the process.

Well, there is no doubt the squeezing is a problem for both parties. I empathise with when Lewis got squeezed by Leclerc at Monza and I feel it was reckless of the FIA not to penalise it more, as the F1 drivers have taken liberties in terms of thinking squeezing is okay, Verstappen included.

I genuinely feel other drivers give other drivers room at that situation which just happened between Lewis and Max. I feel if Lewis lets Max avoid the sausage kerb, then if Max pushes Lewis off track, it is Max's fault and he should be penalised.

I get that Lewis probably feels Max won't be penalised enough if he does give more room but the problem is he squeezed Max way too late and didn't even have the speed at the first apex to be the dominant car owning the line into the second apex.

If he squeezes Max early then I feel Max goes down the escape road or tries an outside line at the second apex.

I genuinely don't feel Max intends to damage his car over a sausage kerb or run into another car to the point of damaging them both. More to the point, his past experience may have informed him that the move was okay there with a bit of the sausage kerb.

But yeah, maybe Verstappen and co. ought to have been penalised more for contact in the past.

This contact was entirely kerb related because he had no room. If the kerb is lower or spits him out differently there is no crazy contact.

[Nitrodaze]

Well, there is no doubt the squeezing is a problem for both parties. I empathise with when Lewis got squeezed by Leclerc at Monza and I feel it was reckless of the FIA not to penalise it more, as the F1 drivers have taken liberties in terms of thinking squeezing is okay, Verstappen included.

I genuinely feel other drivers give other drivers room at that situation which just happened between Lewis and Max. I feel if Lewis lets Max avoid the sausage kerb, then if Max pushes Lewis off track, it is Max's fault and he should be penalised.

I get that Lewis probably feels Max won't be penalised enough if he does give more room but the problem is he squeezed Max way too late and didn't even have the speed at the first apex to be the dominant car owning the line into the second apex.

If he squeezes Max early then I feel Max goes down the escape road or tries an outside line at the second apex.

I genuinely don't feel Max intends to damage his car over a sausage kerb or run into another car to the point of damaging them both. More to the point, his past experience may have informed him that the move was okay there with a bit of the sausage kerb.

But yeah, maybe Verstappen and co. ought to have been penalised more for contact in the past.

This contact was entirely kerb related because he had no room. If the kerb is lower or spits him out differently there is no crazy contact.

Hamilton took the racing line through the corner, Verstappen saw and knew that. To give room would be to yield the racing line to Verstappen. That is not how to go racing. So stop dicking around.

[Nitrodaze]

Hence Hamilton getting a penalty in GB and Verstappen getting the penality in Monza.



Mature driver would have had the long game in mind - Hamilton whether Verstappen came out of the corner in front or not, was going to be ahead of him at the end of the race. So in the end, not a bad result for Verstappen to be shown "feelings", when it clear he was in the 3rd best car this weekend.

You have a knack of talking rubbish. What long game. He had to do just what he did,. It was up to Verstappen to take the long view or crash.

[The Black Knight]

Does anyone here think Verstappen would have attempted that crash were it Norris coming out of the pits?

From ESPNF1:

Again, we may never know, but it's interesting to pose the question of whether Verstappen would have made the same move against any driver other than Hamilton. There's no doubt that by committing to Turn 2 without having his car ahead, Verstappen was risking a collision.

A collision with another driver at that corner -- Ricciardo in the opening stint of the race, for example -- would have been disastrous for his title chances as it would have taken him out of the race and given Hamilton a free run at victory. But against Hamilton, the same move either takes them both out, resulting in zero sum game, or, if Hamilton makes space, gives him a slight chance of holding the position.

The answer is no he wouldn't. This is why Toto probably wasn't far off when he called it a tactical foul. He gets the move done, Max wins. He doesn't get the move done he takes them both out. Max also wins in this situation. It was a win win situation for Max and since he was most likely to take the engine penalty in Sochi anyway, which will negate the 3 place grid drop, then Max has net gained from this incident.

I think there needs to be F1 rule changes where if you have a grid drop and choose to negate it with a engine penalty that the penalty moves to the race afterwards. As it stands now he got a pretty much irrelevant 2 penalty points on his license and kept the championship lead. It's a big win for Max either way.

[Nitrodaze]

Does anyone here think Verstappen would have attempted that crash were it Norris coming out of the pits?

From ESPNF1:


The answer is no he wouldn't. This is why Toto probably wasn't far off when he called it a tactical foul. He gets the move done, Max wins. He doesn't get the move done he takes them both out. Max also wins in this situation. It was a win win situation for Max and since he was most likely to take the engine penalty in Sochi anyway, which will negate the 3 place grid drop, then Max has net gained from this incident.

I think there needs to be F1 rule changes where if you have a grid drop and choose to negate it with a engine penalty that the penalty moves to the race afterwards. As it stands now he got a pretty much irrelevant 2 penalty points on his license and kept the championship lead. It's a big win for Max either way.

Of course not. He would damage the car with no upside to benefit from.

[Firstgear]

Does anyone here think Verstappen would have attempted that crash were it Norris coming out of the pits?

hahaha...I like how you phrase the question. "attempted that crash"
Yes, his attempt was quite successful.

[truefan72]

Does anyone here think Verstappen would have attempted that crash were it Norris coming out of the pits?

From ESPNF1:


The answer is no he wouldn't. This is why Toto probably wasn't far off when he called it a tactical foul. He gets the move done, Max wins. He doesn't get the move done he takes them both out. Max also wins in this situation. It was a win win situation for Max and since he was most likely to take the engine penalty in Sochi anyway, which will negate the 3 place grid drop, then Max has net gained from this incident.

I think there needs to be F1 rule changes where if you have a grid drop and choose to negate it with a engine penalty that the penalty moves to the race afterwards. As it stands now he got a pretty much irrelevant 2 penalty points on his license and kept the championship lead. It's a big win for Max either way.

Of course not. He would damage the car with no upside to benefit from.

That's why I would advocate for a 10 second in race penalty at the next race instead of a 3 place grid drop.
A racing incident should merit an in-race penalty.
I would have applied that to Bottas and Stroll as well for the Hungary incident. In fact I would have made it a 10 sec stop and go for both of them.