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  1. #261
    Senior Member AnttiL's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Allez Andruet View Post
    No offence, but who's the last factory driver (excl. so-called pay drivers) with as weak CV as Oliver? Simon Jean-Joseph in 1999?
    Good call, but it’s always difficult to know who’s a pay driver and who is not.

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  3. #262
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    Quote Originally Posted by ouvreur View Post
    The biggest variable in this, is a team's ability to adapt to a major regulation change. It doesn't matter how much money you've got, or how much you've won before, or how clever your people are, if they're working in the wrong direction. C3 WRC, anyone?

    In this regard, M-Sport were able to steal a march on everyone in 2017, despite enduring a 2016 season very nearly as bad (Ott Tanak's pace in the Dmack car aside) as it has been for them in 2021. That said, their lead development driver for the '17 car was Tanak - it seems unlikely that they have had a driver of equivalent pedigree involved in the Puma, unless it's the best-kept secret in motorsport history...

    It can only be this possibility that Craig Breen is banking on.
    The thing is that MSport lineup with Breen, Fourmaux and Greensmith totally reminds me of Citroen 2017 lineup of Meeke, Breen, Lefevbre. Except it's even weaker. Meeke had 3 wins and Breen had 1 podium before 2017.

    In other words, one good driver (but not one of the very best at the moment) and two weak ones. If the one driver doesn't deliver for whatever reason there is nobody to pickup. (and this further increases the pressure on the one driver)
    Compare that with Toyota this year with all 3 drivers winning a rally often when one or both of the others have a bad day.

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  5. #263
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    Quote Originally Posted by EstWRC View Post
    Hyundai confirming Sordo and Solberg http://motorsport.hyundai.com/crews-confirmed/
    Congratulations to toyota for winning the 2022 constructors world championship.

    I always considered adamo kinda brutal and impulsive, but not stupid. I wonder if this was done above his head, i can't see this as being a decision by him.

  6. #264
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    Quote Originally Posted by mknight View Post
    The thing is that MSport lineup with Breen, Fourmaux and Greensmith totally reminds me of Citroen 2017 lineup of Meeke, Breen, Lefevbre. Except it's even weaker. Meeke had 3 wins and Breen had 1 podium before 2017.

    In other words, one good driver (but not one of the very best at the moment) and two weak ones. If the one driver doesn't deliver for whatever reason there is nobody to pickup. (and this further increases the pressure on the one driver)
    Compare that with Toyota this year with all 3 drivers winning a rally often when one or both of the others have a bad day.
    What should M-Sport do then?
    Quit the series after not getting top3 driver..?
    Championship wise M-Sport is more successful than Hyundai..
    If Hyundai had been more reliable, then Tänak and Neuville would have gained a lot more points and manus and WDC title would have been easier to achieve.

    Let's see what happens next season.. Nobody knows, maybe Wilson manages to get someone top driver for 2023 season.

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  8. #265
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    Quote Originally Posted by mknight View Post
    The thing is that MSport lineup with Breen, Fourmaux and Greensmith totally reminds me of Citroen 2017 lineup of Meeke, Breen, Lefevbre. Except it's even weaker. Meeke had 3 wins and Breen had 1 podium before 2017.

    In other words, one good driver (but not one of the very best at the moment) and two weak ones. If the one driver doesn't deliver for whatever reason there is nobody to pickup. (and this further increases the pressure on the one driver)
    Compare that with Toyota this year with all 3 drivers winning a rally often when one or both of the others have a bad day.
    As has already been asked, what can they do? Convince Ogier, Evans and Tanak to break their contracts and come back to them, or buy them out? Short of that, they won't be able to satisfy the 'one of the very best at the moment' criteria, and even if they did, I doubt Breen would be happy to see someone come in 'above' him in the pecking order. A driver lineup like Toyota's or Hyundai's costs significantly more than M-Sport have to offer.

    Without Greensmith, there's no team. Fourmaux is being billed as a superstar in the making (although we saw that with Eric Camilli) and has some serious backers. Without an endless stream of cash being pumped in by a manufacturer, this is as good as it's going to get. Criticising M-Sport for spending less money on drivers than Toyota or Hyundai is like criticising a man with no legs for not being able to run as fast as Usain Bolt. Just be gratefully they're still willing to try.

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  10. #266
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    Quote Originally Posted by ouvreur View Post
    As has already been asked, what can they do? Convince Ogier, Evans and Tanak to break their contracts and come back to them, or buy them out? Short of that, they won't be able to satisfy the 'one of the very best at the moment' criteria, and even if they did, I doubt Breen would be happy to see someone come in 'above' him in the pecking order. A driver lineup like Toyota's or Hyundai's costs significantly more than M-Sport have to offer.

    Without Greensmith, there's no team. Fourmaux is being billed as a superstar in the making (although we saw that with Eric Camilli) and has some serious backers. Without an endless stream of cash being pumped in by a manufacturer, this is as good as it's going to get. Criticising M-Sport for spending less money on drivers than Toyota or Hyundai is like criticising a man with no legs for not being able to run as fast as Usain Bolt. Just be gratefully they're still willing to try.
    Use the money they claimed to have for the top driver to get a well balanced team where they have multiple chances of success. Not just a one man team. Something like 2003-4 with Martin and Duval.
    That off course, only works if they really have the money.

    Fourmaux might be a superstar in the making, but even judging by Rovanpera it will take him at least a year to be able to fight for podiums, most likely longer, cause he simply lacks the experience. Rovanpera did most of the rallies in R5 twice before even driving them in WRC and it still took him an extra year in WRC to be competetive almost everywhere.
    Fourmaux hasn't done many rallies at all and some in 2WD car only, like Finland where it showed massively on the times.

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  12. #267
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    I think the cars are more the primary element in how 2022 plays out not the drivers. The nature of how the chassis are being constructed and the power plants will be more of a factor certainly early in the season and especially if Monte sticks to its guns re servicing. It may pay M Sport to have a couple of guys picking up points early doors leaving Craig, if in fact he is team leader, to go for wins. I know there has been a year of testing however there are so many different elements to factor in even more than in 2017 so rather than debate/bitch about who or who isnt more deserving of a seat in 22 look to who makes the best job of what they have got.

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  14. #268
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    Quote Originally Posted by denkimi View Post
    Congratulations to toyota for winning the 2022 constructors world championship.

    I always considered adamo kinda brutal and impulsive, but not stupid. I wonder if this was done above his head, i can't see this as being a decision by him.
    I don't agree about Adamo

    Sometimes his impulsive decisions didn't seem to be well thought about.
    Ex. Loeb to Portugal 2019 on a whim, to stages he has not done before and with differentials that were tested and set-up for Mikkelsen and he couldn't change (because of event pairing) => bad times followed by a crash and no points for Hyundai
    Breen to Australia 2019 also seemed like clearly worse pick (and he just crashed as last Hyundai in GB), but since the rally didn't take place we never got to see the result.

    He said himself that he either trusts a driver or doesn't and it seems that when he trusts a driver he will push them no matter what (and kick those he doesn't).
    Right now he seems to trust Solberg no matter what and not trust Huttunen no matter what. The decision to put Solberg in WRC for Arctic was entirely his as he claims.

    So I think this was his decision as well.

  15. #269
    Senior Member AnttiL's Avatar
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    Silly Season 2022

    Quote Originally Posted by mknight View Post
    Use the money they claimed to have for the top driver to get a well balanced team where they have multiple chances of success. Not just a one man team. Something like 2003-4 with Martin and Duval.
    That off course, only works if they really have the money.
    You guys still refuse to understand the difference between investing in a world champion and investing in a "mediocre" driver.

    When M-Sport invested in Ogier, they could expect lots of press attention, rally wins and even world titles (which they eventually got). And now they would have been ready to do the same with Tänak, Neuville or Evans. But it's not the same to invest Ogier's salary in three "mediocre" drivers, because they don't bring the press attention, secure rally wins or make titles possible.

    If you're shopping for a new top line car but the car shop doesn't have the model you're looking for, you don't replace that with three cheaper cars, just because you can afford them with the new car price?

    You can also use other examples if it makes it easier to understand. I'm ready to pay 15 euros for a glass of excellent imperial stout, but if the bar doesn't have any, I'm not satisfied by replacing that with three 5 euro pints of basic lager, even though it costs the same.

    I'm almost thinking there's some marketing side involved in today's announcements. Breen brings positive image for M-Sport in the British Isles, where most of their market is (especially now with Brexit). And having Solberg in the car guarantees press attention, no matter the results.
    Last edited by AnttiL; 6th October 2021 at 13:02.

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  17. #270
    Senior Member Fast Eddie WRC's Avatar
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    Autosport:

    "Breen is the first driver confirmed by M-Sport for 2022 although it is expected Adrien Fourmaux, who has been developing the new Puma, will be retained for next season.
    It is anticipated M-Sport will field three cars next season with current driver Gus Greensmith and nine-time world champion Sebastien Loeb among those linked to a possible drive next year."

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