2021 Race 6 - Baku

[Nitrodaze]

Russell has proven his worth. If Mercedes don't promote him next year, something I believe he has overwhelmingly earned, then he should not wait for them and, considering it's Bottas in the other car, it's really their loss. Three years in a Williams is enough and he has done his dues.

I can't see Gasly getting a Mercedes drive when a driver the calibre of Russell is available.

I agree. If Mercedes do not promote him next season, he should look elsewhere. Elsewhere may well be Redbull. Risky but necessary. I think Gasly would have done an equivalent job given the support and the car that was given to Russell. Mercedes is not Redbull remember. He is better than you think.

[The Black Knight]

I agree. If Mercedes do not promote him next season, he should look elsewhere. Elsewhere may well be Redbull. Risky but necessary. I think Gasly would have done an equivalent job given the support and the car that was given to Russell. Mercedes is not Redbull remember. He is better than you think.

No, he's not. And RBR know that which is exactly why they signed Perez ahead of him and it's also why they were so hesitant to promote him to F1 in the first place. He had his chance in RBR and they have a lot more information than you or me including inside feedback from Alpha Tauri. The Alpha Tauri is better than you think and that's why he is being made to look better than he actually is. If he suddenly found some extra speed from somewhere RBR would have bitten the bullet and promoted him again. And Russell would wipe the floor with him.

[Nitrodaze]

No, he's not. And RBR know that which is exactly why they signed Perez ahead of him and it's also why they were so hesitant to promote him to F1 in the first place. He had his chance in RBR and they have a lot more information than you or me including inside feedback from Alpha Tauri. The Alpha Tauri is better than you think and that's why he is being made to look better than he actually is. If he suddenly found some extra speed from somewhere RBR would have bitten the bullet and promoted him again. And Russell would wipe the floor with him.

I don't know where you get your info from. But l can tell you this; he was going to be promoted early, he was told when he would be in the car but to keep it quiet until the official announcement. But he mistakenly released the information to the French press that had a field day with the info. Redbull was very angry with him, much to Kvyat's surprise that he was losing his seat.

Once he got into the team, he was very frustrated with the car and his relationship with his engineers appeared to deteriorate. Consequentially, he never really had the car set up to his liking, which reflected very poorly on him. Most people judge him based on that particularly difficult period for him. The Alpha Tauri is not making him look good. If that was the case, Tsunoda would be doing better than he is at the moment. The Alpha Tauri has a chassis issue which seems to be improving recently.

Since he went back to Torro Rosso, he has been a better driver. The team has given him a car that suits him and he has been performing better than expected. He is good, Redbull has made him look bad that's all.

[airshifter]

I actually think the talk of Russell being so proven is comical. He is in a car that is the bottom of the field, and really hasn't had any known strong people in the team to compete with. Even if he did, the car is such a dog that there is no strong comparision.

We only know what we know. He did very well in series leading up to Formula 1, and he has been in a dog of a car since. With one race at Merc he was leading.... in a car that completely dominated the field the entire year. Yes, he was leading Bottas..... does that prove a solid driver? Merc had almost double the points of RB for the season, and Bottas only beat Lewis a few times. Thus we can conclude that George was probably at least as good on that day as the guy who could rarely challenge Lewis.

I don't at all dislike him. And I'd like to see him get a shot at Merc. But I'd venture to say that in the reserve position, there were plenty of other drivers that could have challenged Bottas in equal hardware.

I think he is at least as quick as Gasly most likely, maybe even quicker. The only real dent Gasly has on his record is not being able to cope with RB quickly and secure high points out of the box. But it's not as if he is the only one that has been in that position. And Ferrari as well as Merc stole podiums from Max early in the season when Gasly was with RB, so the relative comparion to Albon is probably that he performed at least close to or as well IMHO.

He at least has a track record in a car that can perform sometimes, and not just a one off chance in a top car.


Neither of the two have any long term record in top cars, so claiming superiority of either is pointless IMHO.



It's silly season all the time. What we think and the team principles and powers that be think can often be completely different things either way.



I would think right now both RB and Merc would be more concerned with the next races, not next year. And any mid year jumps could easily upset the team dynamics and screw either of them up.

[Nitrodaze]

I actually think the talk of Russell being so proven is comical. He is in a car that is the bottom of the field, and really hasn't had any known strong people in the team to compete with. Even if he did, the car is such a dog that there is no strong comparision.

We only know what we know. He did very well in series leading up to Formula 1, and he has been in a dog of a car since. With one race at Merc he was leading.... in a car that completely dominated the field the entire year. Yes, he was leading Bottas..... does that prove a solid driver? Merc had almost double the points of RB for the season, and Bottas only beat Lewis a few times. Thus we can conclude that George was probably at least as good on that day as the guy who could rarely challenge Lewis.

I don't at all dislike him. And I'd like to see him get a shot at Merc. But I'd venture to say that in the reserve position, there were plenty of other drivers that could have challenged Bottas in equal hardware.

I think he is at least as quick as Gasly most likely, maybe even quicker. The only real dent Gasly has on his record is not being able to cope with RB quickly and secure high points out of the box. But it's not as if he is the only one that has been in that position. And Ferrari as well as Merc stole podiums from Max early in the season when Gasly was with RB, so the relative comparion to Albon is probably that he performed at least close to or as well IMHO.

He at least has a track record in a car that can perform sometimes, and not just a one off chance in a top car.


Neither of the two have any long term record in top cars, so claiming superiority of either is pointless IMHO.



It's silly season all the time. What we think and the team principles and powers that be think can often be completely different things either way.



I would think right now both RB and Merc would be more concerned with the next races, not next year. And any mid year jumps could easily upset the team dynamics and screw either of them up.

Shifter, l think you are not fair to Russell. There is a buzz around him because he is a real talent. I would go as far as to say with championship-winning potential. I don't think anyone has suggested that he was a proven candidate per see. He would be said to be proven if he has at least one f1 world title to his name to qualify as proven. What he has done is showcase what is possible from him if given the Mercedes seat. What we saw was exciting. Particularly on a day when Bottas was looking very ordinary.

Among the next generation of drivers; the Norris, Gasly, Verstappen, Leclerc and Sainz, he is clearly a calibre among the best of them. If Redbull is thinking of knicking him from Mercedes, it is because they can see that. But l do agree with you on the point that there are other drivers that may have performed equally well in the W20. Ocon for instance finished on the podium at Bahrain in a Renault. Imagine what he could have done in a Mercedes.

That said, he has not been promoted into the Mercedes because Bottas and Hamilton are still in those seats. It is not because he has not met the criteria for filling one of those seats but because he is in a queue. Being in the wings waiting, puts a lot of pressure on Bottas. Bottas' confidence appears to be seriously dented by the race in Bahrain. He probably has not recovered from it by all accounts

[F1nKS]

But would Russell head to Redbull when he is so close to securing a seat with Mercedes?

I am sure if Russell has his choice it would be Mercedes. Have you noticed how calm he's been for the last few weeks. I think he been told he getting the Mercedes job.

Would Redbull want to swap Perez [who is doing a great job and promises to be even better with time] for Russell?

Horner when asked about driver lineup for 2022 said something to the effect that there will have a "competitive driver" in the 2nd seat next year and wouldn't commit to Perez.

Of course I am sure RB wants Perez to put it together all together and bring consistent results the rest of the year (beating Bottas and being in position to do what he did last week).

would Russell want to go to a team that has burnt two of their very capable juniors? It would be a huge risk for Russell to take a Redbull seat. Especially the cursed second seat next to Verstappen.

Yes. If the choice is Williams or Redbull. Even Gasly wants the RB seat back.

Can he beat Verstappen in the same car? Definitely. If he is given fair and equal treatment and equipment. Redbull has a history of not being able to do that. Which is where the risk lay.

I agree. Things don't seem to go well with two Alpha Dogs on the same team. That why it could be a little dicey with him paired up with Hamilton until he retires.

On Gasly, l would say investigate his racing history. He is a talent as good as Russell, Norris and Verstappen. He would be very high on any teams shopping list if he can be cheaply separated from Redbull. He won a race and a number of podium visits in a car that was not as good as the Mclaren, Mercedes or Ferrari. That alone would ensure he gets a look when the opportunity becomes available.

Why didn't Renault want Gasly? I would take Gasly over Ocon.

[airshifter]

Shifter, l think you are not fair on Russell. There is a buzz around him because he is a real talent. I would go as far as to say with championship-winning potential. I don't think anyone has suggested that he was a proven candidate per see. He would be said to be proven if he has at least one f1 world title to his name to qualify as proven. What he has done is showcase what is possible from him if given the Mercedes seat. What we saw was exciting. Particularly on a day when Bottas was looking very ordinary.

Among the next generation of drivers; the Norris, Gasly, Verstappen, Leclerc and Sainz, he is clearly a calibre among the best of them. If Redbull is thinking of knicking him from Mercedes, it is because they can see that. But l do agree with you on the point that there are other drivers that may have performed equally well in the W20. Ocon for instance finished on the podium at Bahrain in a Renault. Imagine what he could have done in a Mercedes.

That said, he has not been promoted into the Mercedes because Bottas and Hamilton are still in those seats. It is not because he has not met the criteria for filling one of those seats but because he is in a queue. Being in the wings waiting, puts a lot of pressure on Bottas. Bottas' confidence appears to be seriously dented by the race in Bahrain. He probably has not recovered from it by all accounts

I am being more than fair about Russell. Of all the drivers you have mentioned in the previous few threads, he is the one with almost no comparisons in F1 except for a single drive in a dominant car. Yet you've stated that in equal machinery he could beat Max. Then you go on to include Gasly and Norris as up in the same league.

None of us know if that is true. We still don't know if Lewis can be Max in equal machinery. We simply know that Lewis and Max, both in superior cars, are beating the rest at the moment.

There are probably a number of drivers that would be competing in the dominant cars. The trick is figuring out who the actual strongest drivers are, since the comparison is only usually those drivers in the lesser cars. And I think all of us fully understand that nobody is promoted to a seat in a better car while those seats are still filled. Contracted under programs or not, those drivers don't get a chance until the right seat opens, and even then it can be short lived at times.

[airshifter]

**snipped to keep the relevant info I'm responding to**


Horner when asked about driver lineup for 2022 said something to the effect that there will have a "competitive driver" in the 2nd seat next year and wouldn't commit to Perez.

Of course I am sure RB wants Perez to put it together all together and bring consistent results the rest of the year (beating Bottas and being in position to do what he did last week).



I agree. Things don't seem to go well with two Alpha Dogs on the same team. That why it could be a little dicey with him paired up with Hamilton until he retires.

I think you've touched upon two key points that would impact either possible move.

RB have said the same about the last several #2 drivers. No long term commitment seems to be the current game. Perform now or be gone more or less. Some drivers would take a chance at that, others might not.

And more importantly IMHO is the two strong drivers on one team comment. Merc really doesn't want that, and I don't think RB does either. Though Merc did let Nico race Lewis, at this stage of the game having stuck with Bottas, it's safe to say they are looking for #2. And RB has made it clear even when Max wasn't top dog, he was going to get top dog status.

Though it could be subject to change. Merc has had the luxury is winning constructors with Bottas in the camp, even when he wasn't the strongest. Now with a threat from RB they might let someone challenge Lewis. And the same applies to RB.... if they think they are in the fight for the top spot, they might change their normal methods a bit.



But...... I think we should just start a silly season thread now. None of our recent responses has anything to do with Baku.

[Nitrodaze]

I am being more than fair about Russell. Of all the drivers you have mentioned in the previous few threads, he is the one with almost no comparisons in F1 except for a single drive in a dominant car. Yet you've stated that in equal machinery he could beat Max. Then you go on to include Gasly and Norris as up in the same league.

None of us know if that is true. We still don't know if Lewis can be Max in equal machinery. We simply know that Lewis and Max, both in superior cars, are beating the rest at the moment.

There are probably a number of drivers that would be competing in the dominant cars. The trick is figuring out who the actual strongest drivers are, since the comparison is only usually those drivers in the lesser cars. And I think all of us fully understand that nobody is promoted to a seat in a better car while those seats are still filled. Contracted under programs or not, those drivers don't get a chance until the right seat opens, and even then it can be short lived at times.

When l say you are not being fair. I am talking about appreciating the potential of a driver. Yes, there are many unknowns. If Redbull took that sort of perspective to hiring their drivers, Verstappen would still be in Torro Rosso now. Every driver presents each team bosses with a perspective of their potential, given the chance to drive their car. Perez did just that when he won the Bahrain GP and was swiftly hired by Redbull. And he has confirmed that potential by winning the Baku GP.

Note:- Perez is the first driver to win in that 2nd seat at Redbull since Ricciardo. What a relief that must have been for Horner. The curse is broken.

With very little opportunity to showcase his true potential, Russell grasped his one and only opportunity and nearly won the Bahrain GP. A race that did wonders for Perez. My point is, it is not about yardstick measures but measures of potential. And Russell has demonstrated that he has enormous potential.

On Hamilton compared to Verstappen, this scenario is the best possible way to measure the comparative strengths and weaknesses of both drivers. In the same team, Verstappen would have to cope with the in-team politics, the mind games as well as try to beat Hamilton on track. That is not a good scenario for a young challenger to take on a seven-time world champion. However, in the safety and protection of another team, he can focus on his racing and put out his best performances.

We adore Alonso because he beat Seven-time world champion, Michael Schumacher, twice in a Renault. Would he have done so, driving in the second seat at Ferrari? Certainly not. He would be flying too close to the sun and would have been burnt from the experience. To estimate what is possible in the future, we only have "potential" to go on. When it comes down to proving it, there is a myriad of factors that come into play to producing what would actually happen. And the outcome can be different from what we expect. Among those things is crucially luck and good timing which plays a huge role in what transpires for each driver.

Bad timing destroyed Grosjean's career. Albon is paying the price for that very same thing. Gasly was nearly destroyed by it. Thankfully he is recovering well.

[F1nKS]

But...... I think we should just start a silly season thread now. None of our recent responses has anything to do with Baku.

I there is a "Silly Season 2021" thread.....Just saying