Electric RallyCar Development

[mknight]

He says what I already mentioned. That if it's too slow vs Rally2 they could add 10kW or something like that (supposedly without any extra modification).
And suggests possible weight reduction on battery and electric motor.

[Mirek]

Few points about the Opel E-Rally Cup from Barum rally.

- The spectators were showing outright animosity, booing on the cars, showing asses to them etc. You can think whatever you want about that but the fact is that there was zero positive publicity for Opel from that but a lot of negative one. Rally spectators simply don't want that (at least on Barum). I feel sorry for the crews because there was undaubtebly high quality among them.

- The cars are slow as hell and boring. Even with top drivers like Pellier, Rossel or Vd Marel they were much slower than Clios Rally5, their times were comparable with historic drivers driving Peugeot 309Gti, BMW 318si or Lada VFTS.

- They weren't able to drive the standard rally loops (too long distance) but that's hardly a surprise.

- They use power from the public power grid but they need 2 MW for themselves (info from Jörg Schrott, boss of Opel Motorsport). That is possible on Barum where service area is placed within a huge factory but it's outright impossible in far majority of Czech events where service is usually located on some small local airfield or other suitable free area.

[mknight]

Your point 1 and 2 hang very closely together.
A slow FWD car with no power and no sound is a boring car...

I also remember people laughing at Ford Ka cup cars 20 years ago....cause they were epically boring.

(add to that the nearly constant anti-electric publicity in Czech media and rally-media especially).

We talked about it previously that I see little point in making an electric car that has no single advantage over a petrol one and in addition has no sound. The advantage that's simplest to add is more power.

The reception to Kneissel Fabia in Austria among people who saw it was quite different.

[Mirek]

The reception to Kneissel Fabia in Austria among people who saw it was quite different.

Of course but you can probably buy the complete Opel E-Rally cup garage for the price of one Kneissel Fabia.

Rallying is not only about the top class. The thing is that the slowest and cheapest modern car (Clio Rally5) was 2-5 s/km faster than the Opel E-Rally cup cars (with better drivers). The Opel E-Rally cup was meant to show afforadble electric rallying but the result is an epically slow and boring car.

[mknight]

Take Honda E, put in rollcage and upgrade battery cooling and you have an electric car that's fun to watch and probably same cost as the Opel.

The whole concept of that cup just seems wrong to me. If you sacrifice "everything" for cost you end up with a car that costs the same as petrol one but without any advantage.

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As I have said before I find it totally ridiculous when people use this car or even better stock Audi Etrons (in Rally Bohemia 2 years ago) as justification that electric cars are boring.

Nobody would use the the mentioned Ford Ka or stock Audi Q5 as a "representative" rally car.

[Mirek]

Take Honda E, put in rollcage and upgrade battery cooling and you have an electric car that's fun to watch and probably same cost as the Opel.

The whole concept of that cup just seems wrong to me. If you sacrifice "everything" for cost you end up with a car that costs the same as petrol one but without any advantage.

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As I have said before I find it totally ridiculous when people use this car or even better stock Audi Etrons (in Rally Bohemia 2 years ago) as justification that electric cars are boring.

Nobody would use the the mentioned Ford Ka or stock Audi Q5 as a "representative" rally car.

It's natural to compare the cheap electric cars with the other cheap cars. Far majority of rally entry field is made of cheap cars and is perfectly ok to compare them. Same goes to stock cars. The electric cars must bring some advantages otherwise the only way to promote them is by giving them artificial advatages or by penalising the others - that's being done today (either by rules or by the law, doesn't matter).

Also let's not forget that while electric rally cars power is restricted by range, the power of petrol cars is restricted purely on safety grounds. There is no issue to run larger restrictors without getting out of fuel mid-loop.

[mknight]

But that's exactly what people are not doing. Not comparing similar cars.

Anyway power of petrol cars is not restricted purely on safety grounds. Especially not for cheap cars like R4. It's also a lot about costs. More power needs more cooling, different gearbox, different driveshaft, maybe completely different engine.

With electric cars similar power upgrade is much easier. Range is not a real problem as long as the car manages the stage. "It didn't make whole loop without charging"....who cares? I am not following how often petrol cars have refueling zones. If they need 15min charge after each stage so what...

[Mirek]

If they need 15min charge after each stage so what...

I guess you don't realize how silly that is when 12 very low-power cars need 2MW power grid for recharging and by the words of Mr. Schrott they need 3 days to build the infrastructure and 1,5 days to pack it. How do you want to recharge them after every stage? How do you think it can be done when there is 230 electric cars (Barum 2021)? Where do you even find a place to put them and all the stuff after every stage?

That is all feasible only when the EVs are just a curiosity present in token numbers.

[mknight]

"Travel chargers" like Kneissel uses, with own batteries.
One truck could surely recharge some 30 cars in total after each stage maybe more and charge 5-8 at same time. Then you roll in next truck. Those 230 cars arrive over the span of 3++ hours.

With charging for example after every stage you would need only a few mins (say 10), so at no point will there be too many cars at same time.

In the end it will be a slightly bigger refueling zone, about the size of an average petrol station parking area.

(Obviously you then drive the trucks to a place where they charge over longer period.)

Funnily in the longer term you could also use the "public" charging infrastructure. Cause unlike (racing) fuel, electricity is the same and you can't "cheat" with it. So if not necessarily charging at normal chargers, you could have a "connecting box" (with converters and cooling), that you set up on a public fast charger (350 kw one).


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The current ecup setup doesn't simply sound like a good (and scalable) idea. Recharging directly off grid with 12 cars at "same" time.

[Mirek]

"Travel chargers" like Kneissel uses, with own batteries.
One truck could surely recharge some 30 cars in total after each stage maybe more and charge 5-8 at same time. Then you roll in next truck. Those 230 cars arrive over the span of 3++ hours.

With charging for example after every stage you would need only a few mins (say 10), so at no point will there be too many cars at same time.

In the end it will be a slightly bigger refueling zone, about the size of an average petrol station parking area.

(Obviously you then drive the trucks to a place where they charge over longer period.)

Funnily in the longer term you could also use the "public" charging infrastructure. Cause unlike (racing) fuel, electricity is the same and you can't "cheat" with it. So if not necessarily charging at normal chargers, you could have a "connecting box" (with converters and cooling), that you set up on a public fast charger (350 kw one).


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The current ecup setup doesn't simply sound like a good (and scalable) idea. Recharging directly off grid with 12 cars at "same" time.

Who will pay those millions of Euros for those trucks?