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  1. #51
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    Quote Originally Posted by Nitrodaze View Post
    Martin Brundle explained why it was not faster. The Mercedes still has instability,so they need that run-off area to maintain speed through that corner. The Redbull didn't!
    So the car that doesn't handle as well can exceed the limits the better handling cars must use?

    As the rule was set, they allowed that a car might occasionally go deep and exceed limits. But then they allowed some cars to do it for the entire race essentially, until the other cars started using the same advantage. I have no issue with the fact that they made Max give the position back. After all, a pass is a lasting advantage. However if a car is intentionally going beyond limits, it's to gain time, which is also a lasting advantage. The last I checked races are won by completing them in less time.

    They need to either always enforce it, preferably with a pre-determined limit to the number of times to account for driver error, or don't enforce it at all, and let the drivers decide what the track limits are.

  2. #52
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    Quote Originally Posted by airshifter View Post
    So the car that doesn't handle as well can exceed the limits the better handling cars must use?

    As the rule was set, they allowed that a car might occasionally go deep and exceed limits. But then they allowed some cars to do it for the entire race essentially, until the other cars started using the same advantage. I have no issue with the fact that they made Max give the position back. After all, a pass is a lasting advantage. However if a car is intentionally going beyond limits, it's to gain time, which is also a lasting advantage. The last I checked races are won by completing them in less time.

    They need to either always enforce it, preferably with a pre-determined limit to the number of times to account for driver error, or don't enforce it at all, and let the drivers decide what the track limits are.
    That is one way of looking at it. The stewards confused matters with their about-turn on track limits. The race director imposed track limits for qualifying but suggested he would not during the race. Mercedes on that understanding raced accordingly. They only tightened the rules on track limits after Horner moaned about it. His radio instructions to Verstappen to exceed track limits where the Hamilton was repeatedly seen to do, triggered the response from the stewards. They promptly issued a warning to Mercedes on track limits which the Mercedes pitwall instantly informed both their drivers.

    Unfortunately, Verstappen subsequently needed to exceed track limits to complete his overtake of Hamilton. Which unfortunately placed the stewards in a position whereby they had no choice but to impose the track limit rule on Verstappen, causing him to have to give the place back or face a time punishment. If they hadn't complained about it, chances are Verstappen may have won the race. You cannot eat your cake and have it, the old English adage goes.
    Last edited by Nitrodaze; 31st March 2021 at 07:21.
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  4. #53
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    Well I'd be hard pressed to believe that any car not intentionally using a line beyond track limits is doing it just for fun. They do it to lessen lap times, which is in fact gaining a lasting advantage. The fact that it was allowed, then disallowed when used by other drivers completely lacks consistency.

    If they redefined the limits to be the grass and gravel, anyone not in the grass and gravel should not be penalized. If they did not redefine the limits beyond the white lines, anyone crossing them should have been warned early on, or faced penalty.

    What they actually did was neither of the above.

  5. #54
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    Red Bull , it seems , took the high road here .
    They could have done as Max apparently suggested , and took the penalty , relying on Max to try to get the time back by getting more than 5 seconds ahead of Lewis .
    I also think they had a real chance of arguing that Max knew the Lewis also had a car on the other side of him , so would expect Lewis to be firstly distracted , and secondly , potentially unable to avoid him , had Max run a tighter line .

    Merc cars were unable to run the corner at that speed without running wide but were never penalized for it .
    To give the place back was the gentleman racer thing to do and should reflect well on them .

  6. #55
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    Two of the greatest driver the chaps at Sky say, referring to Hamilton and Verstappen. That made me chuckle a bit. How they lower the bar for greatness so easily.

    Anyhow, right as usual Baggie, the Mercedes is not as fast within the strict track limits. Also, Verstappen assumes he would have got a five-second penalty if he was allowed to ignore the warning from the stewards to give the place back. Chances were that he may have got five seconds for the off-track infringement and another five for ignoring the warning.

    It was unfortunate but l think they would definitely win the next one if they come better prepared. With Perez properly prepared and in the mix. The Redbull just has a better pace than the Mercedes at the mo.

    Come to think of it, Mercedes was haggling on wages with a driver that can deliver this sort of win out of a half-chance only a few months ago.
    Last edited by Nitrodaze; 30th March 2021 at 17:40.
    Better a witty fool than a foolish wit.
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  7. #56
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    Quote Originally Posted by Bagwan View Post
    Red Bull , it seems , took the high road here .
    They could have done as Max apparently suggested , and took the penalty , relying on Max to try to get the time back by getting more than 5 seconds ahead of Lewis .
    I also think they had a real chance of arguing that Max knew the Lewis also had a car on the other side of him , so would expect Lewis to be firstly distracted , and secondly , potentially unable to avoid him , had Max run a tighter line .

    Merc cars were unable to run the corner at that speed without running wide but were never penalized for it .
    To give the place back was the gentleman racer thing to do and should reflect well on them .
    Overall I think RB did the right thing, and Max for a change seemed to run a much more mature thinking race then he usually does. They probably could have pushed a point with the stewards, and the fact that the rules were vague at best, not to mention the fact that they contradicted the sporting regs.

    The battle in the last laps did show one issue that still exists from last year though. It seems that the car that has to attack from behind has limited time to do it or it kills the tires quickly. They still aren't dealing well with dirty air and how it impacts them. This will probably limit the tight duels that go on for many laps, but at least now they can run closer than in past years.

  8. #57
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    Quote Originally Posted by airshifter View Post
    Overall I think RB did the right thing, and Max for a change seemed to run a much more mature thinking race then he usually does. They probably could have pushed a point with the stewards, and the fact that the rules were vague at best, not to mention the fact that they contradicted the sporting regs.

    The battle in the last laps did show one issue that still exists from last year though. It seems that the car that has to attack from behind has limited time to do it or it kills the tires quickly. They still aren't dealing well with dirty air and how it impacts them. This will probably limit the tight duels that go on for many laps, but at least now they can run closer than in past years.
    They are using new tyre compounds this season. Very different from last season's compound. Besides, it takes a couple of laps to clean the tyres when they collect dirt from running off track. I think the Redbull car has the pace advantage to overcome the negative impact of the dirty air. Unfortunately, Verstappen ran off at a part of the track limits that was dirtier than the part Hamilton had been using. I doubt the effects of dirty tyres would change with next season's car.
    Last edited by Nitrodaze; 31st March 2021 at 07:23.
    Better a witty fool than a foolish wit.
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  9. #58
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    "Chances were that he may have got five seconds for the off-track infringement and another five for ignoring the warning."

    Nitro , the warning was that he would get a penalty , so it's not likely he would get a second penalty . That doesn't make sense at all .

    If you think about it , Max had a point when he suggested staying in first place .
    Staying there would mean they could argue the point , and even if Max couldn't get far enough away from Lewis to negate the 5 second penalty , the two of them were more than 5 seconds ahead of everyone else , so he wouldn't have dropped farther behind than second place , where he finished the race anyway .

    But , the way it finished , with Max second , there's no way to regain the position , as you'd have to penalize Lewis , who hadn't done anything wrong in the incident , even if he had crossed the line multiple times before without any outside influence .

    I even think it's arguable that because the Mercs were going wide there all race long , that the tires would have been less tortured than if they had stayed inside the line , thus making it more possible for Max to have repassed him in the end .

    And , Shifter , I think you're right about Max being more mature , as he toed the team line right away and didn't seem to freak out as he might have done in the past .

  10. #59
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    Quote Originally Posted by Bagwan View Post
    "Chances were that he may have got five seconds for the off-track infringement and another five for ignoring the warning."

    Nitro , the warning was that he would get a penalty , so it's not likely he would get a second penalty . That doesn't make sense at all .

    If you think about it , Max had a point when he suggested staying in first place .
    Staying there would mean they could argue the point , and even if Max couldn't get far enough away from Lewis to negate the 5 second penalty , the two of them were more than 5 seconds ahead of everyone else , so he wouldn't have dropped farther behind than second place , where he finished the race anyway .

    But , the way it finished , with Max second , there's no way to regain the position , as you'd have to penalize Lewis , who hadn't done anything wrong in the incident , even if he had crossed the line multiple times before without any outside influence .

    I even think it's arguable that because the Mercs were going wide there all race long , that the tires would have been less tortured than if they had stayed inside the line , thus making it more possible for Max to have repassed him in the end .

    And , Shifter , I think you're right about Max being more mature , as he toed the team line right away and didn't seem to freak out as he might have done in the past .
    I agree, they would have had the opportunity to argue the point. But they would be arguing the point with stewards whose warning has been ignored as well as a strongly complaining Mercedes. They would start the season with bad blood with the stewards. And the stewards have discretionary additional points that they are allowed to dish out where they find it would serve to discourage their warnings from being ignored. The Redbull pit wall made the right call under the circumstances. For Verstappen supporters, l can see why they would feel that he has been hard done by. But that is not the case.

    This is one of those things that is fraught with controversy either way. If Verstappen had won the race by ignoring the Stewards, he would have gained an advantage by ignoring the stewards as he would not have won the race otherwise, as the final outcome shows. And Mercedes would argue that point strongly. It would be a dodgy win and it surprises me that Verstappen suggested it in the first place. The mentality of winning by hook or crook does not impress me. That should not be the ethos of the sport.

    You could argue the Mercedes were exceeding track limits for most of the race. But there was no clear infringement at that stage of the race as they were led to believe it was ok to do that. Hence, it would not be fair to suggest that they cheated in any way.
    Last edited by Nitrodaze; 31st March 2021 at 15:54.
    Better a witty fool than a foolish wit.
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  11. #60
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    In my opinion it was wrong of Max to give up his position after the overtake. Better the stewards decided after the race.

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