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  1. #11
    Senior Member truefan72's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by gm99 View Post
    Honda will stay on until the end of the 2021 season, anyway, so at least the pull-out is not quite as sudden as it was in 2008. But I guess there won't be a 2022 engine to salvage.
    yup. I meant to say 2022. Will correct

  2. #12
    Senior Member truefan72's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Nitrodaze View Post
    Well l am not surprised really. I think they are not interested in the new regulations. I always felt the standardization of powertrain components and sharing intellectual property was going to be a sticking point for Honda.

    The Exodus has began.
    Hmm. Good point

  3. #13
    Senior Member truefan72's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Nitrodaze View Post

    The high numbers of Ferrari ex staff in key FIA nad F1 Management positions is something they would be concerned about. As well as the new regulations coming in 2022. The handling of the Ferrari engine infraction must have been a serious concern to them. Especially when they factor the punishment of Hamilton in relation to the Ferrari-engine-gate [and all aforementioned things].

    This is particularly the case as the new regulations moved alot of power from the teams and concentrate them in the hands of the F1 management, which can be seen to be under the indirect control of Ferrari.
    Completely agree. Itís like a Ferrari takeover of F1 and Iím pretty sick of it. Canít imagine how other teams feel. Itís absurd that they blatantly cheated in 2019 and somehow manage to come out of this in an even stronger position and maintain the special dispensation. Wonít be surprised if Mercedes pull out and focus on formula-e.

  4. #14
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    Quote Originally Posted by truefan72 View Post
    Completely agree. Itís like a Ferrari takeover of F1 and Iím pretty sick of it. Canít imagine how other teams feel. Itís absurd that they blatantly cheated in 2019 and somehow manage to come out of this in an even stronger position and maintain the special dispensation. Wonít be surprised if Mercedes pull out and focus on formula-e.
    The optics looks bad for F1 at the moment. I simply can't understand why Liberty thought it would be ok to appoint Domenicalli. I thought Chase Carey was perfect. It would not be easy to replace him. And l think they would be searching for a new CEO soon by the looks of things.
    Better a witty fool than a foolish wit.
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  5. Likes: truefan72 (8th October 2020)
  6. #15
    Senior Member Jag_Warrior's Avatar
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    Well, this is certainly the biggest news day that I've faced in a long while.

    I figured they'd drop the ICS or IMSA before dropping F1. Instead, Honda dropped Penske for its 2021 IMSA program (going with Wayne Taylor and Meyer Shank) and will ax the F1 program totally. So I'm guessing that those Honda to NASCAR rumors are dead... or???

    My head is spinning today. I might just change my screen name to JagRok or Rok_Warrior.
    "Every generation's memory is exactly as long as its own experience." --John Kenneth Galbraith

  7. #16
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    Quote Originally Posted by Nitrodaze View Post
    Not fair to kick Honda for leaving. There are lots of things that they must have taken into consideration. I sure they are not hard on cash to stop financing their engine programme.

    The high numbers of Ferrari ex staff in key FIA nad F1 Management positions is something they would be concerned about. As well as the new regulations coming in 2022. The handling of the Ferrari engine infraction must have been a serious concern to them. Especially when they factor the punishment of Hamilton in relation to the Ferrari-engine-gate [and all aforementioned things].

    This is particularly the case as the new regulations moved alot of power from the teams and concentrate them in the hands of the F1 management, which can be seen to be under the indirect control of Ferrari.

    The fact of the matter is, F1 is not very attractive at the moment.

    Redbull would have their job cut out, persuading Porsche to join this dodgy looking F1 setup.
    These are valid points you make. I hadnít really thought about it from this POV as reasons for them pulling out. I retract my previous statement.

    The indirect control of Ferrari must be a serious concern. I couldnít blame Mercedes for pulling out either, and with that the same must apply for Honda. I wonder if Mercedes knew Domenicalli was going to be announced as F1 CEO when they signed. Youíd imagine they must have given how recent in the past it was.

    RBR will be staying in F1 anyway:

    https://www.autosport.com/f1/news/152552/red-bull-alphatauri-to-stay-in-f1-despite-honda-exit
    Last edited by The Black Knight; 3rd October 2020 at 09:48.

  8. #17
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    Quote Originally Posted by The Black Knight View Post
    These are valid points you make. I hadn’t really thought about it from this POV as reasons for them pulling out. I retract my previous statement.

    The indirect control of Ferrari must be a serious concern. I couldn’t blame Mercedes for pulling out either, and with that the same must apply for Honda. I wonder if Mercedes knew Domenicalli was going to be announced as F1 CEO when they signed. You’d imagine they must have given how recent in the past it was.

    RBR will be staying in F1 anyway:

    https://www.autosport.com/f1/news/15...ite-honda-exit
    Redbull is a customer team. It is safe to say all customer teams are likely to stay.
    Better a witty fool than a foolish wit.
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  9. #18
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    Now after digesting this unexpected news of Honda's departure. We ask what now for Redbull?

    Mercedes already have two teams they supply; Racing Point and Williams. Ferrari has two teams they supply; Haas and Alfa Romeo. Renault only supplies one team; Mclaren. After Honda departs in 2022, Mercedes would be suppying three teams; Aston Martin, Williams and Mclaren. Ferrari would remain unchanged and Renault would have no commitment to any customer team. With two unsupplied team seeking engines.

    In terms of workload and cost, it is obvious that Mercedes would not be keen to increase their commitment. I have a feeling that Ferrari would not want to double their current commitment either.

    With new engine regulations coming in 2026, i find it hard to see a new manufacturer wanting to take on the pain and expense of building a new hybrid engine, considering that it took Honda 3 years plus to get competitive and failure free.

    There is a lot of talk about Redbull taking over the Honda engines and Intellectual Property. That might be feasible, but the inherent knowledge that went into building that engine would take time to transfer. The need for continued development of the engine to maintain its competitivity suggest that this might be a risky option but doable.

    A less risky approach would be to go back to the Renault engine. I am sure Abitebout would very much hate the idea but they may have no choice but to give Redbull and Alpha Tauri their engines. The Renault engines of late has shown some genuine pace. Unfortunately, the Renault chassis has not been able to harness the full capability of that engine. It may give Redbull what they need to fight at the sharp end of the grid.

    The other question is, can Redbull hang on to Verstapenn with this development. The driver market for 2022 now takes on a different complexion as Verstapenn shakes up the market. Can we see Verstapenn in Mercedes in 2022?

    A Hamilton vs Verstapenn pairing in a silver Arrows is a very popular wish. Would Toto consider this pairing? It is not without its headache. Having two alpha males in the same pen is bound to try any managers resolve.
    Last edited by Nitrodaze; 3rd October 2020 at 14:42.
    Better a witty fool than a foolish wit.
    William Shakespeare

  10. #19
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    So , I hadn't heard that Chase was chased out in any way .
    Was he ?
    And , Stefano came from Lambo last , didn't he ?
    Isn't that the V-dub group ?

    And , Porsche has an F1 engine waiting , apparently , according to Saward .

    So maybe Honda is paranoid about V-dub , not Ferrari .


    I don't really believe that .
    Nor do I believe that Honda leaving is in any way related to fearing the evil Stefano's rule .

    RBR and AT will need to choose to build a new engine with the Honda base , or partner Porsche .
    And , it looks like Andy Cowell being at loose ends may help with either choice .

  11. #20
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    Quote Originally Posted by Bagwan View Post
    So , I hadn't heard that Chase was chased out in any way .
    Was he ?
    Not really, he is moving to other positions within Liberty l guess, but with links to the F1 activity he says.

    I think Chase Carey has not finished what he set out to do. His bailing out now simply leaves the F1 establishment in some disarray. Firstly is the concern that there might be a change of philosophy with the change of CEO. Domenicalli would want to be his own man and stamp his own mark on the CEO role.

    This is where some level of concern may lie, however, it would be supressed to give Domenicalli a chance to settle in and make his views clear. Personally, l think he would do a great job, as he brings a lot of experience from running the Ferrari team and winning a world championship with Kimi Raikonen.

    Quote Originally Posted by Bagwan View Post
    And , Stefano came from Lambo last , didn't he ?
    Isn't that the V-dub group ?

    And , Porsche has an F1 engine waiting , apparently , according to Saward .

    So maybe Honda is paranoid about V-dub , not Ferrari .
    It is irrelevant where Stefano last worked, he was Ferrari f1 team boss for over five seasons, so he is seen very much as a Ferrari man. By the way, Lamborghini use to be owned by Ferrari. So there is a loose link there.

    The Porsche engine would not be quite as advanced as the Honda engine. It may need a few years to iron out the kinks and get it as competitive as [at least] the Renault engine. That said, Porsche have a lot of experience with hybrid engines. If the Panamera is anything to go by.

    Quote Originally Posted by Bagwan View Post
    I don't really believe that .
    Nor do I believe that Honda leaving is in any way related to fearing the evil Stefano's rule .

    RBR and AT will need to choose to build a new engine with the Honda base , or partner Porsche .
    And , it looks like Andy Cowell being at loose ends may help with either choice .
    A RBR partnership with Porsche for the long term makes sense. That is if Porsche is interested. I doubt Honda has a problem with Domenicalli personally, there are a number of things that they must have taken into consideration. I have guessed a few. And my guess may be very wrong mind you.

    One thing is certain, nobody buys the Honda excuse of wanting to focus in other part of their business. They have the capacity to do F1 and pursue other business areas.
    Last edited by Nitrodaze; 3rd October 2020 at 18:26.
    Better a witty fool than a foolish wit.
    William Shakespeare

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