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  1. #51
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    The other thing to bear in mind is that Gasly and Albon did not get the same level of preparation for the senior seat as Verstapenn did. Verstapenn got two full seasons 2014 and 2015 and half of 2016 before moving from Torro Rosso to Redbull. He was better prepared for senior team duties then anyone else after him from Torro Rosso/ Alpha Tauri.

    Gasly got a half season 2017 and a full season 2018 at Torro Rosso before promotion to Redbull in 2019 where he spent half a season before being demoted back to Torro Rosso.

    Albon barely settled into his surprise offer to join Torro Rosso, only half way through his rookie season he was promoted to the senior team to replace Gasly.

    Both of these guys did not get a normal nuturing to prepare them for senior team duties. It was not surprising that they both found it difficult at some point.
    Last edited by Nitrodaze; 11th August 2020 at 21:54.
    Better a witty fool than a foolish wit.
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  2. #52
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    Quote Originally Posted by Nitrodaze View Post
    I am surprised you assumed these F2 and GP2 champions are not as fast as Verstapenn. You also neglect to mention Leclerc and Russell who are also F2 champions. Are you suggesting that these guys [Leclerc and Russel] are not as fast as Verstapenn also?

    I think any of those champions in Verstapenns position would perform comparably.
    I really don't think Pantano, Palmer or Maldonado would have won the last Grand Prix driving a Red Bull Honda as their number one driver. Apparently, F1 team principals think the same, otherwise one of them would still be in F1.
    What I'm trying to say is that winning F2/GP2 does not automatically make you a great F1 driver - some (Hamilton, Rosberg, Leclerc) are just more talented than others.
    Oct. 31, 1999 - one of the blackest days in motorsports.

  3. #53
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    Do we have a full list of all of Seb’s spins over the last three seasons? I’ve genuinely lost count but it must be well into its 20s at this stage. It’s no wonder Ferrari aren’t keeping him. I genuinely feel sorry for the guy but you cannot have that amount of unforced errors and expect to keep your seat at a team like Ferrari.

  4. Likes: N. Jones (12th August 2020)
  5. #54
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    Quote Originally Posted by gm99 View Post
    I really don't think Pantano, Palmer or Maldonado would have won the last Grand Prix driving a Red Bull Honda as their number one driver. Apparently, F1 team principals think the same, otherwise one of them would still be in F1.
    What I'm trying to say is that winning F2/GP2 does not automatically make you a great F1 driver - some (Hamilton, Rosberg, Leclerc) are just more talented than others.
    Wow!

    You forget that Maldonado won the 2012 Spanish Grandprix for Williams.
    Better a witty fool than a foolish wit.
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  6. #55
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    Quote Originally Posted by Nitrodaze View Post
    Wow!

    You forget that Maldonado won the 2012 Spanish Grandprix for Williams.
    No, I didn't. I just don't think that makes him a great F1 driver. For that, I think you have to perform at top level consistently rather than just show occassional flashes of brilliance. Maldonado was brilliant in Spain that year, but that was about the only highlight of his five years in F1, where he was out-qualified by every team-mate he's had and only once (in 2012 owing to that victory in Spain) finished ahead of his team-mate in the drivers standings.
    But I think we are probably drifting too far from the topic of the Anniversary GP here...
    Oct. 31, 1999 - one of the blackest days in motorsports.

  7. #56
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    Quote Originally Posted by Nitrodaze View Post
    Ricciado vs Verstapenn is a different case. Verstapenn was promoted to replace Kyvat, thus joining the more experienced Ricciado. There was an initial gap while Verstapenn got to grips with the RBR car. Then there was a noticeable equalization of performance between Ricciado and Verstapenn which began to tilt the team support towards Verstapenn. From that moment on, Ricciado got very poor service and his performance dropped due to all manner of car setup related issues.

    Ricciado left Redbull because it was clear to him that he may not get the same level of support or service that Verstapenn was getting. Hence, he was always going to struggle to put out his best performances with the car he was getting. He spent many races fighting from the depth of the middlefield and ending up in top 5 positions at the end of the race. Much like we are seeing with Albon. We can also see that Gasly in the Alpha Tauri is a different driver from the one that drove the Redbull.

    The other side of the garage at redbull to Verstapenn, gets the crap mechanics. They cannot setup the car to the level of the Verstapenn side of the grid. They were asleep at Monaco and caused Ricciado to lose the race to Hamilton a few years back. So you cannot really judge the performance of any driver using that side of the garage fairly knowing these facts.

    You have to look beyond the obvious buddy.

    Yeah, thats exactly why I'm asking you, the person who is so convinced that Verstappen isn't any quicker than Gasly. That's actually quite amusing!

    I agree that Red Bull do seem to support their No2's less than other teams but if they were both on the same level as Max, I'd still be expecting Gasly and Albon to be showing a lot more than what they have.

    Saying that everyone who wins GP2 and other lower formulae's are somehow automatically on the same level? Your logic is non logical.



    I think, that as a Hamilton fanboy, so far up his derrier, you either cant see the wood for the trees or more likely... feel threatened by just how good Max clearly is.. and wittingly or unwittingly try to denigrate him when you can. Some real insecure Freudian stuff going on right there... buddy.

  8. #57
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    Quote Originally Posted by Zico View Post
    I think, that as a Hamilton fanboy, so far up his derrier, you either cant see the wood for the trees or more likely... feel threatened by just how good Max clearly is.. and wittingly or unwittingly try to denigrate him when you can. Some real insecure Freudian stuff going on right there... buddy.
    Zico, l am surprised you are resulting to abuse so easily here. I am not sure why you also call me a Hamilton Fanboy. I am equally surprised that you think l have something against Verstapenn.

    I don't understand why you have written your post above, l find it very childish at best. Come on buddy, you are better than this.
    Last edited by Nitrodaze; 12th August 2020 at 21:06.
    Better a witty fool than a foolish wit.
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  9. #58
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    Quote Originally Posted by Zico View Post
    Yeah, thats exactly why I'm asking you, the person who is so convinced that Verstappen isn't any quicker than Gasly. That's actually quite amusing!

    I agree that Red Bull do seem to support their No2's less than other teams but if they were both on the same level as Max, I'd still be expecting Gasly and Albon to be showing a lot more than what they have.

    Saying that everyone who wins GP2 and other lower formulae's are somehow automatically on the same level? Your logic is non logical.
    My logic is simple, GP2 and current F2 is a tough junior series. The racing is super close and the ability to win is equally as tough. It is properly dog eat dog racing. To come through that on top is not an easy accomplishment. The calibre of those that win the title are usually very talented individuals. Not all of them convert their talent into a successful F1 career. But that is no reason to denigrade their accomplishment or their inherent talent.

    Some juniors trive better than others in F1. This is evident when you look at Vettel and Diresta. Diresta was beating Vettel on occassion in F3 but their careers have gone in different directions in F1. Vettel has gone on to be a four time F1 world champion, Diresta has not even won one F1 title.

    The same is the case between Verstapenn and Ocon. Ocon was beating Verstapenn on occassions in F3 and their relative F1 careers has gone down different paths. Verstapenn is driving for a top team capable of winning titles, Ocon is in the midfields fighting to keep his career on track.

    [By the way, Ocon is as fast as Verstapenn. You can see that based on how he has performed against Ricciado this season]

    My point was simple, juniors coming into F1 are finding it tough if they do not get into a team willing to invest into nurturing their talent with a view of giving them the best grounding to prepare them for a chance of fighting for the F1 title one day. The way Gasly and Albon has been rushed into the senior team has drasticaly reduced their period of nuturing. Albon is effectively in the very deep end and every race weekend, he must fight real hard to stay afloat or be kicked back to the junior team just as quickly as he came out of it. We could say Gasly has resumed his nurturing at Alpha Tauri, but the chance of him getting a Redbull drive is very uncertain. The chances are that his career is somewaht curtailed to the midfields.

    It is uncertain if he would ever get the chance to fight for the F1 title in the future. But anything is possible in F1 so l keep my fingers cross for him. And this is the very reason why l think Mercedes are being very sensible about how they manage Russell's career development. 2021 is too early for his promotion to the senior team. Especially since Bottas is delivering a good job every weekend since 2019.

    The fact that l have identified this difference between how Verstapenn has been nurtured for his place in the Redbull team and Gasly and Albon has been rushed through, does not imply that l think Verstapenn is not deserving of his seat at Redbull. On the contrary buddy, he is well deserving of his seat and has shown this time and time again why he is a very special driver.

    The point is not about Verstapenn but about Gasly and Albon relative to Verstapenn. The fact stated above does not remove the fact that Verstapenn remains the bencemark for these guys.
    Last edited by Nitrodaze; 12th August 2020 at 21:08.
    Better a witty fool than a foolish wit.
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  10. Likes: truefan72 (12th August 2020)
  11. #59
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    Quote Originally Posted by Nitrodaze View Post
    Ricciado vs Verstapenn is a different case. Verstapenn was promoted to replace Kyvat, thus joining the more experienced Ricciado. There was an initial gap while Verstapenn got to grips with the RBR car. Then there was a noticeable equalization of performance between Ricciado and Verstapenn which began to tilt the team support towards Verstapenn. From that moment on, Ricciado got very poor service and his performance dropped due to all manner of car setup related issues.

    Ricciado left Redbull because it was clear to him that he may not get the same level of support or service that Verstapenn was getting. Hence, he was always going to struggle to put out his best performances with the car he was getting. He spent many races fighting from the depth of the middlefield and ending up in top 5 positions at the end of the race. Much like we are seeing with Albon. We can also see that Gasly in the Alpha Tauri is a different driver from the one that drove the Redbull.

    The other side of the garage at redbull to Verstapenn, gets the crap mechanics. They cannot setup the car to the level of the Verstapenn side of the grid. They were asleep at Monaco and caused Ricciado to lose the race to Hamilton a few years back. So you cannot really judge the performance of any driver using that side of the garage fairly knowing these facts.

    You have to look beyond the obvious buddy.
    well said
    you can't argue with results. 2019 FGP 2nd Place ;)

  12. #60
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    Quote Originally Posted by gm99 View Post
    No, I didn't. I just don't think that makes him a great F1 driver. For that, I think you have to perform at top level consistently rather than just show occassional flashes of brilliance. Maldonado was brilliant in Spain that year, but that was about the only highlight of his five years in F1, where he was out-qualified by every team-mate he's had and only once (in 2012 owing to that victory in Spain) finished ahead of his team-mate in the drivers standings.
    But I think we are probably drifting too far from the topic of the Anniversary GP here...
    the point here is not if they are great F1 drivers (only time and opportunity will tell), only if, given equally machinery and emphasis from the team, if they would be able to produce decent results and the occasional win. The last time RBR had somewhat of equality was in the early years of the Webber/Vettel combo. Each were capable of winning the race and the cars were both well taken care of from a strategic and setup perspective. In a way they had the ideal set up with a semi autonomous approach to each side of the garage. They won wcc championships, in one year webber was on course to win the drivers championship before his korea disaster, and the WCC was firmly in the pocket throughout that tenure. Somewhere along the line they just decided to focus on one driver to the detriment of the other and then fully embrace that philosophy with Verstappen which is really an issue now. Gasly, Kvyatt, and Albon are very talented drivers. They decided to dismiss Sainz too who was/is just as good as Verstappen IMO and abandoned Riccardo half way through the 2018 season, despite him outscoring Verstappen and scoring race wins. Horner certainly carries blame for this, but the real culprit is probably Marko who pretty much is a Verstappen guy (as he was a vettel guy) and could care less about the 2nd seat. If not of the Hamilton incident, Albon would have won the first race in Austria ( i still maintain if he showed a bit more patience hew would have easily passed him on the start straight or the long straight after turn 1) The fact that they have had to change race engineers (probably because none of them listened to Albon, his needs or cared about his car) tells you that Horner knows the issue isn't Albon and probably finally realized they are losing points by not setting up 2 competitive cars. Once again for the umpteenth time, Albon has out-driven his car and circumstances and brought home decent points. I wonder what would happen if they provided him with the tools he needs...
    Last edited by truefan72; 12th August 2020 at 21:56.
    you can't argue with results. 2019 FGP 2nd Place ;)

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