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  1. #61
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    Quote Originally Posted by Jag_Warrior View Post
    Just as in all groups (political parties included), there are certainly radicalized or extremist elements within BLM (though it's not a centralized organization). But I wasn't aware that Hamilton had made any comments tarring all members of any race or group with the same brush. If you can point something out or provide a link, I'd like to read it.
    I read an article by Lewis in which he was pretty scathing of F1 being a white dominated sport with no diversity. Iirc he referred to there being no disparity in the "industry" which I took to mean F1 or motorsport in general. I dont have the exact link but it has been well documented elsewhere online.

    However I do think with his recently announced foundation which is attempting to promote motorsport/engineering education paths/routes for black people, the penny has finally dropped on what the reason for that is..



    Quote Originally Posted by Jag_Warrior View Post
    Even with your anecdotal experience recognized, it still doesn't account for the fact that F1 (and Indy Car to a lesser degree) has always been a White male sport. AFAIK, there's never been any sort of serious recruiting or development initiative to get non-White prospects involved in the sport. This is, oddly enough, where NASCAR is more "advanced" than F1 in this area. I mean, let's be honest, at least in the U.S., there are loads of non-White engineering students at all of the top universities. And yes, while Black kids aren't as prevalent as Asians (including Indians), they are there. In my time at Bell Helicopter, they were there. At Cessna, they were there. At Boeing, they were there. Though under-represented when compared to the overall population, they were still there - it wasn't zero. But in F1, they are, for the most part, not there. Even worse, let's mention Asians, who are over-represented in engineering in the U.S., but who are all but absent in F1, outside of Honda and Toyota when they were there. Additionally, given F1's history (think apartheid when F1 raced in South Africa), it's not exactly ridiculous for someone to point out the fact that F1 is one of the least diverse major sports in the world. And given the former head of F1's past tendencies to make racially charged and (no doubt about it) sexist statements, that doesn't exactly provide a "good look", especially in the current environment. But F1's record of being silent on human rights issues has always been incredibly weak, as long as the checks cleared.
    Of course there has to be some, just not as many as you might expect percentage wise compared to other ethnic groups.
    Are there really loads of black engineers in education at the top of the US Uni's? A quick google search 'lack of black engineers' suggests otherwise. One article even suggesting racism at school, college, universities as the reason for that.

    Why that is I do not know... I suspect the reason for the disparity is mainly a cultural thing rather than pure racism. Of the 9 black people I know, 2 of them are musicians, 4 work in retail, 3 others in general employment. Most of them are also involved sports, mainly football (not professionally) but not one of them employed or has a hobby in anything engineering orientated.
    I know that is way too small a sample to gleen anything truly representative from but it does appear to be backed up by a simple google search, feel free.


    When I decided I wanted to study Engineering, I didnt need any encouragement or for it to be promoted to me. It was apparent as a child, wanting to know how everything worked, dismantling, repairing, re-assembling everything at home. I already knew what I wanted to do before I reachex high school.
    If it is cultural, as it seems to me.. is it right to accuse the education system of being racist and also try to promote cultural change because there is a minority in a given sector... mainly because if we dont get more black employees there we will be accused of being racist?


    Quote Originally Posted by Jag_Warrior View Post
    Look, it's fine to say "All Lives Matter" - that's certainly how it should be. But many of those who take issue with that statement point out that that hasn't been, and in many cases, still isn't the case in the U.S. There are still too many examples where a cop, who has clearly committed an offense, is either not charged or there are long delays and the charge is extremely light. Personally, I think that both race and socio-economic status play a part in many of these cases (Black or White, being poor and having a tricky interaction with the police might not be good for your health). But there's no doubt that race also plays a part in many of these cases. The cop who was kneeling on George Floyd's neck CLEARLY didn't think that he'd have anything to worry about. Look at how he casually had his hands in his pockets as he pressed the life out of the guy. Floyd was something less than human to him - his life certainly didn't matter. If the suspect had been an equally non-threatening White female, would he have been so bold and careless? I very, very seriously doubt it. And people know that. Hence, the outrage... misplaced or not.
    Absolutely.. One rotten apple doesnt make all cops or white people racist scumbags though. The vast majority of police generally do an amazing job in the face of much adversity and hate, we only really hear about the bad cases and I think people need to recognise that.

    Quote Originally Posted by Jag_Warrior View Post
    Often I'm reminded of the famous line from Orwell's Animal Farm when I observe some of the goings on these days: All animals are equal... but some are more equal. Ol' George was a pretty smart feller - don't get me started on 1984.

    Anyway, take it as you will. We all have a right to our own points of view. Hopefully we will begin to see better days and more tranquility for all as we move forward.
    Indeed. While I might not agree with every single thing you have said, I agree with most of it and we are able to discuss it without hurling personal insults at each other which is key for any meaningful debate, period.
    Others here could learn something from that... and considering the subject being discussed here, I hope that with it being kinda ironic and hypocritical to be so intolerant of opposing views, it is not totally lost on them.

  2. #62
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    Quote Originally Posted by N4D13 View Post
    In case you'd like some figures on income by ethnicity, this is from the UK government website.

    https://www.ethnicity-facts-figures....-income/latest
    I would not rely too much on this information. Most black british graduate work in europe of further abroad, they find they would live below the poverty line if they only focus on finding work inside the UK, hence must look abroad to earn a living. That group working abroad would not feature in this survey hence it is not representative of the true state of earnings.
    Better a witty fool than a foolish wit.
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  3. #63
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    Quote Originally Posted by Nitrodaze View Post
    I would not rely too much on this information. Most black british graduate work in europe of further abroad, they find they would live below the poverty line if they only focus on finding work inside the UK, hence must look abroad to earn a living. That group working abroad would not feature in this survey hence it is not representative of the true state of earnings.
    Well, the point is to compare people who are actually living in the UK, right? I think that's much more useful than to compare by birthplace.

    Besides, I believe some bits, particularly "most black British graduates" and "find they would live below the poverty line" require some actual evidence. But for me it's fairly hard to see how a university graduate would typically live below the poverty line in the UK (at least if we're talking about STEM professions).

    On top of that, it's hard to see how only uni graduates of specific ethnicity would be affected. I'd be very much surprised if being a black engineer meant that you couldn't get a good paying job in the UK, but being white with the same qualifications didn't.

    Also, you might be missing a point here. If we're talking uni graduates in the UK, which usually features very expensive tuition fees (barring Scotland), then the proportion of black people who access uni is bound to be much lower than that of whites as blacks typically have less income, which in turn means that the proportion of blacks needing to leave the country would be lower than whites.

  4. #64
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    Quote Originally Posted by N4D13 View Post
    Well, the point is to compare people who are actually living in the UK, right? I think that's much more useful than to compare by birthplace.

    Besides, I believe some bits, particularly "most black British graduates" and "find they would live below the poverty line" require some actual evidence. But for me it's fairly hard to see how a university graduate would typically live below the poverty line in the UK (at least if we're talking about STEM professions).

    On top of that, it's hard to see how only uni graduates of specific ethnicity would be affected. I'd be very much surprised if being a black engineer meant that you couldn't get a good paying job in the UK, but being white with the same qualifications didn't.

    Also, you might be missing a point here. If we're talking uni graduates in the UK, which usually features very expensive tuition fees (barring Scotland), then the proportion of black people who access uni is bound to be much lower than that of whites as blacks typically have less income, which in turn means that the proportion of blacks needing to leave the country would be lower than whites.
    Sorry, l did not make clear that these group have their homes and family in the UK but work abroad. And l can understand your disbelief of graduates living under the poverty line. This phenomena exist across the races actually. There are both white and black graduates living below the poverty line for various reasons. So this is not uncommon.
    Last edited by Nitrodaze; 20th July 2020 at 11:10.
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  5. #65
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    Quote Originally Posted by Nitrodaze View Post
    Sorry, l did not make clear that these group have their homes and family in the UK but work abroad. And l can understand your disbelief of graduates living under the poverty line. This phenomena exist across the races actually. There are both white and black graduates living below the poverty line for various reasons. So this is not uncommon.
    I'd like to see your evidence that UK based engineers working abroad do not feature in the survey. I suspect you just dont like the data very much.

    Also.. The UK has a shortage of Engineers. Are you suggesting that UK employers in the Engineering sector are so racist that they would rather not employ a black Engineer than fill the role to give their company the manpower to meet work demand and prosper?

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    Quote Originally Posted by Zico View Post
    I'd like to see your evidence that UK based engineers working abroad do not feature in the survey. I suspect you just dont like the data very much.

    Also.. The UK has a shortage of Engineers. Are you suggesting that UK employers in the Engineering sector are so racist that they would rather not employ a black Engineer than fill the role to give their company the manpower to meet work demand and prosper?
    I think you are taking comments out of context. Especially as my comments were not related to engineers specifically but related to the possibility that the survey might not be complete. i don't want to get into a pointless argument on this. Lets talk racing buddy :-)
    Better a witty fool than a foolish wit.
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  7. #67
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    Quote Originally Posted by Zico View Post
    I read an article by Lewis in which he was pretty scathing of F1 being a white dominated sport with no diversity. Iirc he referred to there being no disparity in the "industry" which I took to mean F1 or motorsport in general. I dont have the exact link but it has been well documented elsewhere online.

    However I do think with his recently announced foundation which is attempting to promote motorsport/engineering education paths/routes for black people, the penny has finally dropped on what the reason for that is..
    Ah, I see. I can't comment, since I haven't read the quotes. But whether it's actual institutional racism, unintended bias or just a closed loop culture (which F1 does seem to be, what with the same old names from decades gone by keep popping up), there certainly is a lack of diversity in F1. I mean, it would be pretty hard to argue against that. As I mentioned, this lack of diversity isn't just restricted to Blacks, but also other ethnicities and women. How Hamilton expressed that fact, I'm unaware. But I pointed out several years ago how various teams were trotting out (all White) females in PR roles for the cameras. And even Lewis has a White female trainer. As well, Lewis' closest business advisor is a White male - to say nothing of his mother. And he's dated women of all ethnicities. So, I can't really see that he has any deep racial hangups about White people, in or out of F1. But he is correct to point out the deficiencies that F1 and FOM have in this area, whatever the basis may be.

    If Hamilton is putting his money where his mouth is, then I guess that's a good thing, right? He could fund some scholarships and appear at some schools and just that would help - since he's such a recognizable figure in the UK and Europe. Get all kinds of kids involved in STEM and other professional pursuits.



    Of course there has to be some, just not as many as you might expect percentage wise compared to other ethnic groups.
    Are there really loads of black engineers in education at the top of the US Uni's? A quick google search 'lack of black engineers' suggests otherwise. One article even suggesting racism at school, college, universities as the reason for that.
    As far as I'm aware, based on their percentage of the population, Blacks (males and females) are underrepresented, females (of all ethnicities) are unrepresented, Asians are overrepresented and White males are overrepresented in the U.S. based STEM fields. But would one reasonably say that just because members of a certain demographic are underrepresented, that would explain why there are close to zero working in a certain industry or sector? I would say not. It should say that we would expect them to be underrepresented in that sector, but not virtually absent. You see what I mean? So I think we're in agreement on the engineering or STEM side, but neither of us really knows the why.


    But again, working for an F1 team, or simply in the FOM organization, an engineering degree is not necessary for all positions or functions. In certain business functions, it wouldn't even be preferred. I had a quick look at the MercedesAMGF1 site yesterday. Open positions included roles in technical, operations, race team and business. Of the six open positions I saw, as best I could tell from reading the descriptions and requirements, only one of the six open positions required any sort of engineering background, and another one required more of a machining and/or fabrication background. The others weren't based on having an engineering related background - really more business or human resources.


    Why that is I do not know... I suspect the reason for the disparity is mainly a cultural thing rather than pure racism. Of the 9 black people I know, 2 of them are musicians, 4 work in retail, 3 others in general employment. Most of them are also involved sports, mainly football (not professionally) but not one of them employed or has a hobby in anything engineering orientated.
    I know that is way too small a sample to gleen anything truly representative from but it does appear to be backed up by a simple google search, feel free.
    Possibly cultural, or just a lack of promotion. I don't know the root cause either, so it's hard to say. But I'm guessing that most kids are drawn to the things that are presented to them at relatively early ages. I mean, how would one be drawn to something that they've never heard of?


    When I decided I wanted to study Engineering, I didnt need any encouragement or for it to be promoted to me. It was apparent as a child, wanting to know how everything worked, dismantling, repairing, re-assembling everything at home. I already knew what I wanted to do before I reachex high school.
    If it is cultural, as it seems to me.. is it right to accuse the education system of being racist and also try to promote cultural change because there is a minority in a given sector... mainly because if we dont get more black employees there we will be accused of being racist?
    Rules and exceptions, right? Like you, I didn't need any (hard) encouragement to go into banking and real estate. But would I say that I am the rule or the exception in not needing encouragement to go into a specific field? More likely that I was an exception. From reading books, watching my father operate his farm and being around relatives in real estate, that's what I developed an interest in and was drawn to as I matured. If I hadn't grow up in that environment, it's more likely that I would have gone in some other direction - never being aware of the opportunities in things that I had no exposure to. Some kids know from an early age what they want to do later in life. Most do not. At least here in the U.S., the only things that we have done a really good job of promoting for kids (Blacks, White or otherwise) are sports and the military. Both are quite prominent in American public high schools, trying to sign kids up for their offerings. You see something quite different at upper tier private schools. I won't delve into that here. But let's just say that it cements the idea that it's not just what you know, but who you know that sometimes makes the difference.

    I would say, if we want a more robust society, which includes things like the judicial system, educational opportunities and health care, then there is certainly no sin in pointing out current shortcomings and dealing with them.



    Absolutely.. One rotten apple doesnt make all cops or white people racist scumbags though. The vast majority of police generally do an amazing job in the face of much adversity and hate, we only really hear about the bad cases and I think people need to recognise that.
    Only extremists are suggesting anything of the kind. My family is full of cops, from the federal level to the local level. The main problem that I've observed over the decades is the "brotherhood" mentality that most cops have. What leads to so many of the problems that we have now in the U.S. is that there are scant mechanisms for good cops to rid their ranks of bad cops, without being called out as a turncoat or a snitch. And in the worst cases, they display an almost gangland attitude, as they cover up for the criminal acts of other cops. Here, among cops, it's called "professional courtesy"; you don't rat on your brothers, no matter what. Google that term and see what pops up. You may be pretty amazed at some of the stories. Also, be aware that some police departments maintain two sets of personnel folders on cops - one that the public sees and one that only the courts or other government agencies see. Most people have no idea about that. While in the company of my uncle, I was like a friend of the family, simply because he was a high level "made man". As a young man I thought that was kind of cool. But as I grew older, I realized that it was like knowing someone in the mafia and I was "protected" as long as I was in his company. That is a problem and it does need to be dealt with.



    Indeed. While I might not agree with every single thing you have said, I agree with most of it and we are able to discuss it without hurling personal insults at each other which is key for any meaningful debate, period.
    Others here could learn something from that... and considering the subject being discussed here, I hope that with it being kinda ironic and hypocritical to be so intolerant of opposing views, it is not totally lost on them.
    That's cool. I enjoy discussions where people can freely express their views. It's partially how I learn. Most of us that remain on this board have been around for quite a few years. We're here because of our love for F1 and I think that we all want it to get bigger and better. Having the sport open itself up to a more diverse fanbase, all while bringing in a more diverse talent pool, is a key component in that way forward, IMO.

    Cheers.
    "Every generation's memory is exactly as long as its own experience." --John Kenneth Galbraith

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