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  1. #21
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    Quote Originally Posted by AnttiL View Post
    I've been looking at the RAC reports posted on VHSRallies and it's crazy that the rallies used to be so long but there was so little footage or coverage. Now we can follow every second and know all little details, even if the rallies are half shorter.
    They were ridiculous, particularly up until '85. The sport should never go back to that. But I do feel the sport has gone too far the other way now though. As a very general rule, I think the itineraries seen from roughly 1993 to 1999 were the best balance. Particularly in GB, what I call the 'ever decreasing circles' concept of rallying has changed the sport beyond all recognition and I feel heavily contributed to it's decline in popularity here.

  2. Likes: Katvala (2nd April 2020)
  3. #22
    Senior Member AnttiL's Avatar
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    We've talked this over a million times. Motorsport ain't cool anymore, it's not so easy to get marshalls for such a large number of stages. It's the same downwards trend as on the factory team budgets. Meanwhile, higher safety measures and a larger number of marshalls per km are required. Spectators (apparently) require other entertainment than just rally cars and other hospitality than the food and drinks you brought over in your backpack. In addition, double-run stages require less recce time compared to a route which consists of single-run stages. The entry lists are shorter so the roads withstand double runs. Service parks are now big buildings which won't move easily, and teams start complaining even about remote tyre changes which require one van and two crew members to drive off the service park.

    I would also personally like to have longer events, with more stages covered and more single runs, but I understand why it is like it is.

    Also, if I may recommend my past blog posts on the topic:

    https://itgetsfasternow.com/2019/02/...the-rule-book/
    https://itgetsfasternow.com/2018/01/...not-have-both/

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  5. #23
    Senior Member Fast Eddie WRC's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by AnttiL View Post
    I've been looking at the RAC reports posted on VHSRallies and it's crazy that the rallies used to be so long but there was so little footage or coverage. Now we can follow every second and know all little details, even if the rallies are half shorter.
    The RAC's duration, no pacenotes, high night mileage and bad weather made it what it was.

    It was never just about pure speed. It had a real magic and mystery too as the coverage was so delayed and tv coverage rare (although mainstream).

    Its pretty ironic we saw so little of it compared to nowadays.

    But maybe its WRC All Live that's actally what is making the modern short rallies acceptable to us. The footage is more way more now, so we ignore how little mileage there is because at least we see it all ?

  6. #24
    Senior Member AnttiL's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Fast Eddie WRC View Post

    But maybe its WRC All Live that's actally what is making the modern short rallies acceptable to us. The footage is more way more now, so we ignore how little mileage there is because at least we see it all ?
    Yeah, it almost feels like we've condensed all the action of a 500-800 km 4-5 day rally into a 300 km 3 day rally, and we can follow it all live.

    It's also good to remember that in rallies like RAC 1985 you couldn't go flat out all the time. A lot of the stages you had to just take it easy and make sure you get through the stage without issues. You had to drive for 36 hours without sleep and there was no Rally2. Conversely, now the drivers are usually well rested and the cars can take it going absolutely flat out all the time. Split times make up for smaller number of stages.

    Also, it's crazy that half of the 4WD factory cars retired during the first forest stage leg. People would be shouting "this is a joke" on twitter if that happened today, and we would see an R5 (equivalent to Kankkunen's RWD Toyota) at 4th place. But now, it's the most legendary race of all times.

    EDIT: I just watched the RAC 1985 day four footage and a lot of the cars look like "saving tyres for power stage"
    Last edited by AnttiL; 2nd April 2020 at 18:13.

  7. Likes: cali (2nd April 2020),Fast Eddie WRC (3rd April 2020),steve.mandzij (2nd April 2020)
  8. #25
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    I don't think they need to change much. As shown by my itinerary, you can theoretically* create an 'event' of greater magnitude almost within the boundaries of the current rules and methodology. Like in Portugal, bringing back the stages further south around Arganil was a very positive step. But for some countries it isn't necessary, Rally Finland doesn't need remote services or very long road sections. Rally Finland is a great event, but that doesn't mean that the formula used there is necessarily the best solution everywhere, but this is the thinking the WRC/FIA committed to.

    *The issue is who pays for it. While the cost wouldn't be much higher, the funding model required becomes more complicated in GB's case.
    Last edited by the sniper; 2nd April 2020 at 19:05.

  9. Likes: AndyRAC (3rd April 2020)
  10. #26
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    Quote Originally Posted by AnttiL View Post
    Yeah, it almost feels like we've condensed all the action of a 500-800 km 4-5 day rally into a 300 km 3 day rally, and we can follow it all live.

    It's also good to remember that in rallies like RAC 1985 you couldn't go flat out all the time. A lot of the stages you had to just take it easy and make sure you get through the stage without issues. You had to drive for 36 hours without sleep and there was no Rally2. Conversely, now the drivers are usually well rested and the cars can take it going absolutely flat out all the time. Split times make up for smaller number of stages.

    Also, it's crazy that half of the 4WD factory cars retired during the first forest stage leg. People would be shouting "this is a joke" on twitter if that happened today, and we would see an R5 (equivalent to Kankkunen's RWD Toyota) at 4th place. But now, it's the most legendary race of all times.

    EDIT: I just watched the RAC 1985 day four footage and a lot of the cars look like "saving tyres for power stage"
    Exactly this. In those days, quite often they didn’t drive flat out very often, and by day 3/4 everyone was just cruising to finish as the gaps were so big. There were exceptions, 1986 was a good fight until close to the end.
    Even when we talk about times like 2000, the gaps between the top 10 were massive, and they were all WRC cars, now the gaps are closer even with WRC2 cars.
    There are pros and cons to both extremes, but for me the flat out action of today is more exciting, but the adventure side of yesteryear was more fun...

  11. Likes: AnttiL (2nd April 2020),Fast Eddie WRC (3rd April 2020)
  12. #27
    Senior Member AnttiL's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by the sniper View Post
    I don't think they need to change much. As shown by my itinerary, you can theoretically* create an 'event' of greater magnitude almost within the boundaries of the current rules and methodology. Like in Portugal, bringing back the stages further south around Arganil was a very positive step.
    You also bent the rules by having forest stages on Thursday, although removing them would have also made the total length decrease below the permitted 350 km

    Portugal has the first day in the Arganil area with the start there, whereas Monte does the opposite by ending with the Turini area stages and having the finish in Monaco. In GB terms you could have the rally based in Carlisle, do stages in Grizedale and Kielder and then drive to Wales on the Saturday evening, stay overnight somewhere and do Wales stages on Sunday. However, the distance from Arganil to Porto is only 160 km whereas from Gap to Monaco it's about 250 km, which in turn is roughly the same as from Carlisle to Deeside. However, you can question would it be worth the liaison. Having the finish in Monaco and driving the Turini stages definitely is worth it. But could Yorkshire stages offer the same as Wales with less liaisons?

  13. #28
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    Quote Originally Posted by AnttiL View Post
    You also bent the rules by having forest stages on Thursday, although removing them would have also made the total length decrease below the permitted 350 km
    Indeed! Hopefully that will be the only change when the official itinerary comes out...

    Quote Originally Posted by AnttiL View Post
    Portugal has the first day in the Arganil area with the start there, whereas Monte does the opposite by ending with the Turini area stages and having the finish in Monaco. In GB terms you could have the rally based in Carlisle, do stages in Grizedale and Kielder and then drive to Wales on the Saturday evening, stay overnight somewhere and do Wales stages on Sunday. However, the distance from Arganil to Porto is only 160 km whereas from Gap to Monaco it's about 250 km, which in turn is roughly the same as from Carlisle to Deeside. However, you can question would it be worth the liaison. Having the finish in Monaco and driving the Turini stages definitely is worth it. But could Yorkshire stages offer the same as Wales with less liaisons?
    You could do it that way, but the beauty of Deeside as the main service park is that from Deeside to a Grizedale East SS Start is 184km or around 2hr 10m actual driving time in clear traffic (that you'd get pre-9am on a Saturday). Deeside to a Myherin SS Start, which has been done many years, is 135km but involves around 1hr 55m of actual driving. So going North from Deeside rather than South isn't too big of a step. Arguably the drive North up the Motorway would be far easier than the somewhat shorter drive South down the A roads.

    As for Yorkshire, if anything I can only see it being a bit part player in any form of Rally GB. If you were to run every sensibly usable gravel stage across Yorkshire, of which there are around 11, the majority of which are shorter than 10km, you'd only have around 110km of SS. Of the core famous Yorkshire stages, I personally don't think Dalby now lends itself too well to a WRC level event. The stages are very narrow, with many long straights, broken up by slow, tight corners. But Dalby could provide up to 40km of SS... I can imagine a nice 220km National BRC or ERC level International rally there, but I just don't see it taking a central role in a WRC rally. So yes, you could use it for the Sunday, but nothing more.
    Last edited by the sniper; 2nd April 2020 at 23:06.

  14. Likes: AnttiL (3rd April 2020)
  15. #29
    Senior Member AnttiL's Avatar
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    Yeah agreed about Yorkshire. Kielder stages are also quite often just long straights and 90° or flat corners, Grizedale has much more character. In turn, there's not much stages to combine Grizedale with to make a full day.

    But meanwhile, I like the mid-Wales stages (Myherin, Hafren, Dyfi) the best. The roads are wider and have still hairpins, as well as fast-flowing long bends.

    How about starting the Friday in Grizedale, then moving over to Wales in the evening through a couple of park stages in England, and do the rest of the rally in Wales?

    Well, the drivers already complain about too much liaisons and the teams complain that their service parks have no visitors on days with remote services...
    Last edited by AnttiL; 3rd April 2020 at 07:45.

  16. #30
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    You could use Comb and Wythop to help make mileage in the Lake District, 2 runs of the Grizedale stages and those two, plus a run at Lowther would give about 100km for the day.
    Perhaps the biggest stumbling block in the modern world is that access around the Lake District is a nightmare, traffic was always murder and it won’t be better now.

  17. Likes: AnttiL (3rd April 2020)

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