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  1. #21
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    It is the duty of the FIA to prove guilt. Until they are able to do so, it is ridiculous to point a finger of guilt at Ferrari. That is simply prejudice; guilty until proven innocent. However, this is a very common practise on the Paddock anyway. The FIA have nosed around the Ferrari operation all of the 2019 season and have come up with nothing, in my book, Ferrari are innocent and it would be grossly unfair to say they are cheating. If they are, then the FIA is grossly incompetent. Of course there would be the usual suggestion that Ferrari are getting special treatment or worst, somebody's hands has been greased. All of that is rubbish in my view.

    Finally, Ferrari has the fastest engine on the straight, we have to let this state of affairs play out. Whatever they are doing is fair play. But what l fail to understand is why it was dealt with in closed doors. I suspect there must be something about the engine which was questioned but could not be conclusively be deemed to be illegal. But discussing this aspect of the engine openly would expose a competitive advantage to Ferrari's competitors. Hence the reason for resolving it in a closed discussion with Ferrari.

    It is also very interesting to note that the statement absolving Ferrari of any guilt came after the Mercedes DAS was deemed to be legal. The crucial difference between the instances was that the DAS was open to scrutiny by the entire paddock, while the aspect of the Ferrari engine in question was not. But for obvious reasons.

    The fact that the Ferrari cars started the 2019 season with a smokey engine that turned out to be the fastest engine, gives reason for suspicion that they may be burning oil which may be giving them some sort of boosted power. If that is the case, the FIA ought to find how they are doing it and outlaw that aspect of the engine for the 2020 season. Clearly they have not found any such thing. If they have, Ferrari have done a masterfull job of designing it within the extremities of the regulations.
    Last edited by Nitrodaze; 7th March 2020 at 19:26.
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  2. #22
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    I am shocked Ferrari didnt object to the wording of the FIA statement that they reached a settlement as it is strongly suggestive of guilt for something... The very fact that they didn't object only serves to further cement the speculation.


    Surprised Liberty are pulicly backing the FIA's decision to deal with the matter in this way as it has done further damage to the already ropey image it had of being biased towards Ferrari.

    Todt should resign immediately and a neutral be instated in his place.
    The emergence of the new 'Rainmaster' - Mad Max at Interlagos 2016!

  3. Likes: truefan72 (8th March 2020)
  4. #23
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    How does this scandal compare to 2007 McLaren espionage controversy? McLaren's punishment was very harsh back then (disqualification plus hefty fine).

  5. #24
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    Quote Originally Posted by zako85 View Post
    How does this scandal compare to 2007 McLaren espionage controversy? McLaren's punishment was very harsh back then (disqualification plus hefty fine).


    Quote Originally Posted by airshifter View Post

    As far as a comparison to Spygate, this is not even similar at this time IMO. The investigation into Spygate allowed drivers immunity in exchange for cooperation. It was revealed that emails between de la Rosa and Alonso discussed the information that was stolen, with sources named within them. This was after Mclaren had denied any distribution taking place.

    Renault were found to be in possession of Mclaren information, but were not fined as no evidence existed that is was ever distributed or used.

    I would fully expect that if any further investigation is taken into the current matter, and evidence of cheating is found, that Ferrari would pay a large fine and most likely be stripped of WCC points and payouts.
    To further the above, Spygate started when a copy shop employee reported the copies being made. If you aren't going to use or distribute the information, why would you need copies? But Mclaren claimed the information was never used. After Alonso's attempt at blackmail (for all practical purposes) he provided proof that himself and de la Rosa had been given some of the information and were discussing it in emails.

    In short, there was actual evidence of wrongdoing for the Spygate scandal.

  6. #25
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    It is impressive how some Ferrari fans are twisting themselves into knots trying to defend the team.
    1. They reached a settlement...which essentially means they paid money to make it go away
    2. they made sure that the actual settlement and malfeascance was kept private and undisclosed

    Does that sound like innocence to you?
    Essentially they managed to pay hush money.
    This is no different than somebody with means covering up their crimes, let's say sexual deviance" with a settlement payment and NDA
    you can convince yourself all day long that they "didn't admit guilt" or the FIA can't quite prove it which i seriously doubt as i suspect they did find damning evidence and just kinda sorta let them off the hook because they are ferrari. But the fact remains that they paid money and are trying to cloak the entire thing with a nondisclosure pact.

    I'll bet you there is actual evidence of wrongdoing. but the FIA, as always, is trying to protect ferrari.
    This is worse than spygate airshifter, and you know it.
    you can't argue with results.

  7. #26
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    Quote Originally Posted by truefan72 View Post
    It is impressive how some Ferrari fans are twisting themselves into knots trying to defend the team.
    1. They reached a settlement...which essentially means they paid money to make it go away
    2. they made sure that the actual settlement and malfeascance was kept private and undisclosed

    Does that sound like innocence to you?
    Essentially they managed to pay hush money.
    This is no different than somebody with means covering up their crimes, let's say sexual deviance" with a settlement payment and NDA
    you can convince yourself all day long that they "didn't admit guilt" or the FIA can't quite prove it which i seriously doubt as i suspect they did find damning evidence and just kinda sorta let them off the hook because they are ferrari. But the fact remains that they paid money and are trying to cloak the entire thing with a nondisclosure pact.

    I'll bet you there is actual evidence of wrongdoing. but the FIA, as always, is trying to protect ferrari.
    This is worse than spygate airshifter, and you know it.


    Well, It does look pretty damming that Ferrari were doing something naughty and that the FIA are as corrupt as a third world dictator.. but as it stands we can only speculate as to what the facts might be.

    Maybe its all just a misunderstanding and an incorruptible Ferrari just offered the FIA a method and the technology to catch all the other manufacturers who aren't quite so incorruptible?

    Meanwhile, here we are all pointing the accusatory finger at them both... and its just us who has the total wrong end of the stick?

    Nah... maybe not..
    The emergence of the new 'Rainmaster' - Mad Max at Interlagos 2016!

  8. #27
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    Quote Originally Posted by truefan72 View Post
    It is impressive how some Ferrari fans are twisting themselves into knots trying to defend the team.
    1. They reached a settlement...which essentially means they paid money to make it go away
    2. they made sure that the actual settlement and malfeascance was kept private and undisclosed

    Does that sound like innocence to you?
    Essentially they managed to pay hush money.
    This is no different than somebody with means covering up their crimes, let's say sexual deviance" with a settlement payment and NDA
    you can convince yourself all day long that they "didn't admit guilt" or the FIA can't quite prove it which i seriously doubt as i suspect they did find damning evidence and just kinda sorta let them off the hook because they are ferrari. But the fact remains that they paid money and are trying to cloak the entire thing with a nondisclosure pact.

    I'll bet you there is actual evidence of wrongdoing. but the FIA, as always, is trying to protect ferrari.
    This is worse than spygate airshifter, and you know it.
    I think it is pure speculation to suggest that they paid to make the problem go away. I can see how the situation might not seem equitable. After all, the current FIA president was a Ferrari team boss. This alone is enough to cause some level of suspicion that Ferrari got away with something. Unfortunately, F1 probably do not have a body that investigates corruption or abuse of authority. That said, there is no evidence at this point to suggest any of that has taken place.

    There is no fact or evidence that Ferrari paid money to anyone. I remain quite flabbergasted that you are adamant of the existence of some sort of wrong doing. We would have to wait and see what turns up by the time we arrive at Melborne. I shall eat humble pie if you turn out to be correct.

    By the way, l am definitely not a Ferrari fan. I lean towards Mclaren and recently Mercedes.
    Last edited by Nitrodaze; 8th March 2020 at 23:08.
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  9. #28
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    Ecclestone-FIA leave teams no choice but to sue.

    "Former F1 boss Bernie Ecclestone says that the FIA has left teams with no choice but to sue the governing body over how it has handled the row about the legality of Ferrari's 2019 car.

    Following complaints from other teams, the SF90 was closely examined by the FIA during the course of last season with the focus being on its fuel-flow system.

    Rival teams suspected the car of dodging restrictions on the rate of fuel that a car could use during a race, explaining the sudden jump in the performance of Ferrari's power unit mid-season.

    Ferrari denied the allegations and appeared to have been cleared of any wrong-doing by the FIA. But last week, a statement from the FIA revealing that it had reached a "confidential settlement" with Ferrari over the matter reignited the controversy.

    Abiteboul remains unhappy with FIA over 'Ferrari-gate'
    Red Bull motor consultant Dr Helmut Marko said that losing out on second place in the constructors championship had cost his team about $24 million in potential lost prize money.

    “We knew from our GPS data that something was wrong. We didn’t have enough evidence, so we didn’t officially protest," he told F1-Insider.com.

    And now Ecclestone has waded into the debate, saying that the way the FIA has handled the matter leaves it open to being sued by the seven non-Ferrari affiliated teams.

    “The teams have to sue the FIA," he insisted this week. "It’s about millions that I think they [the teams] deserve back in money."

    Ecclestone was unimpressed by the FIA's argument that it had lacked concrete evidence to bring charges under the sporting regulations, and the reason it opted for a confidential settlement with Ferrari instead.

    "If Ferrari were clean and innocent, why did they even agree to a deal with Jean Todt? That alone seems like a confession to me," countered the 89-year-old.




    He maintained that the row would never have been allowed to escalate to its current proportions back in his time as F1 supremo.

    “There were often fires that I, as a kind of top firefighter, had to put out," he acknowledged.

    "In my time, however, it was always possible to find a common consensus between the teams, the FIA and myself. But it’s too late for that now.”

    The FIA maintains that its right to reach a confidential settlement with a team is part of the sport's disciplinary regulations introduced by President Jean Todt in 2010 to protect the sport's image or in the event of a unwinnable legal dispute.

    But in a response to the FIA's initial statement, the seven teams not using Ferraripower units threatened to take further action over the matter "within the FIA’s due process and before the competent courts"."

    https://www.google.com/amp/s/f1i.com...o-sue.html/amp




    A bit rich coming from him.. but he probably still knows a thing or two.
    The emergence of the new 'Rainmaster' - Mad Max at Interlagos 2016!

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  11. #29
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    Ecclestone is right. If the FIA is letting Ferrari to get away with breaking engine rules, then that has to be exposed. The real issue here, is the reluctance of the FIA to publish openly what it queried on the Ferrari engine and why they found it was within the rules. All of this would go away if they just published the details of their investigation.

    I quite agree that the FIA has handled this issue in a manner that can only be seen as an attempt to conceal something. While that feeling exist in the paddock, particularly amongs those teams that feel they have been deprived of something tangible that can be measured in money, this discontent shall rage on to the courts. Until this is resolved conclusively, there would always be a finger of guilt and distrust pointed at the FIA and Ferrari.

    But l still give Ferrari the benefit of the doubt. If it turns out otherwise, it would be a demonstration of how tough it is for Ferrari or any other team to get on even terms with Mercedes.

    Like the six times driver world champion Lewis Hamilton, the six times constructor world champion Mercedes is extremely difficult to beat on the technical front.
    Last edited by Nitrodaze; 10th March 2020 at 20:23.
    Better a witty fool than a foolish wit.
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  12. #30
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    "Unwinnable legal dispute" is the applicable phrase .

    The other teams signed up to the same rules as Ferrari , which allow for a confidential agreement .

    Ferrari , obviously I think , have an arguable stance that they were not breaching the rules .

    Perhaps the protesting teams should be wary of bringing the sport into disrepute .

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