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  1. #11
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    There’s the regulations and then there’s the regulation tests for the legality on the car. My guess is Mercedes and Honda were making their engines to the regulations, whereas Ferrari were, at least, in part, designing their engines to pass the tests so their illegality can’t be proven via normal FIA means- this is probably why a settlement was reached, FIA probably knew they were cheating the regs but cannot prove it via their standard testing methods.

    I also always felt this was the approach RBR had with their flexi wings back in 2010-2013ish.

  2. #12
    Senior Member truefan72's Avatar
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    well, well well,
    So here is the update and I am glad to see the other teams feel the same way as I do about this malarky by the FIA, even seeking legal action.
    https://www.skysports.com/f1/news/12...ant-disclosure

    The rival teams statement in full:

    "We, the undersigned teams, were surprised and shocked by the FIA's statement of Friday 28 February regarding the conclusion of its investigation into the Scuderia Ferrari Formula 1 Power Unit.

    "An international sporting regulator has the responsibility to act with the highest standards of governance, integrity and transparency.

    "After months of investigations that were undertaken by the FIA only following queries raised by other teams, we strongly object to the FIA reaching a confidential settlement agreement with Ferrari to conclude this matter.

    "Therefore, we hereby state publicly our shared commitment to pursue full and proper disclosure in this matter, to ensure that our sport treats all competitors fairly and equally. We do so on behalf of the fans, the participants and the stakeholders of Formula One.

    "In addition, we reserve our rights to seek legal redress, within the FIA's due process and before the competent courts.

    "McLaren Racing Limited
    Mercedes-Benz Grand Prix Limited
    Racing Point UK Limited
    Red Bull Racing Limited
    Renault Sport Racing Limited
    Scuderia Alpha Tauri S.p.A.
    Williams Grand Prix Engineering Limited"




    Also not sure why Haas and Alfa Romero are silent on this matter. It is not as if Ferrari shared those engine tricks with them.
    Last edited by truefan72; 5th March 2020 at 02:25.
    you can't argue with results. 2019 FGP 2nd Place ;)

  3. #13
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    FIA respond to the teams statements:

    "The FIA has conducted detailed technical analysis on the Scuderia Ferrari Power Unit as it is entitled to do for any competitor in the FIA Formula One World Championship," read a statement.

    "The extensive and thorough investigations undertaken during the 2019 season raised suspicions that the Scuderia Ferrari PU could be considered as not operating within the limits of the FIA regulations at all times.

    "The Scuderia Ferrari firmly opposed the suspicions and reiterated that its PU always operated in compliance with the regulations.

    "The FIA was not fully satisfied but decided that further action would not necessarily result in a conclusive case due to the complexity of the matter and the material impossibility to provide the unequivocal evidence of a breach.”


    "To avoid the negative consequences that a long litigation would entail especially in light of the uncertainty of the outcome of such litigations and in the best interest of the Championship and of its stakeholders, the FIA, in compliance with Article 4 (ii) of its Judicial and Disciplinary Rules (JDR), decided to enter into an effective and dissuasive settlement agreement with Ferrari to terminate the proceedings.

    "This type of agreement is a legal tool recognised as an essential component of any disciplinary system and is used by many public authorities and other sport federations in the handling of disputes."
    Basically Ferrari were cheating and the FIA couldn’t prove it. The teams should block the Ferrari garage and entire pitlane at the Oz GP, all historical payments should be removed moving forward for Ferrari, and fine them a years budget. If they want to leave the sport after that then off with the cheats. They’ve brought nothing to the sport over the last 12 years in terms of innovation and all they do is piss and moan and threaten to leave. They’re such a disaster they can’t even cheat and win a championship.

  4. #14
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    Quote Originally Posted by The Black Knight View Post
    FIA respond to the teams statements:



    Basically Ferrari were cheating and the FIA couldn’t prove it. The teams should block the Ferrari garage and entire pitlane at the Oz GP, all historical payments should be removed moving forward for Ferrari, and fine them a years budget. If they want to leave the sport after that then off with the cheats. They’ve brought nothing to the sport over the last 12 years in terms of innovation and all they do is piss and moan and threaten to leave. They’re such a disaster they can’t even cheat and win a championship.
    They say the PU "raised suspicions" and "could be considered" , so they had nothing definitive .
    They are suspects in a crime that may or may not have been committed .

    Every team walks as close to the edge as they can , hoping their interpretation of the rules can stand up in court .

    The reds are taking their lumps now , even though it was all supposed to be confidential , and any gains that were made are all money down the loo , as they aren't likely to try whatever that trick was again , as the FIA are now wise to it .

    So , really , all is good in the end .
    There's no need for blockades .

  5. #15
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    Why does this still sound and smell like BS?

    So the FIA claim they couldnt prove Ferrari were cheating but they still had to reach a settlement and a confidential agreement?

    If the verdict was 'not proven' why try and cover it up and in doing so make them look 100% guilty?

    So all future cheating allegations, the findings and punishments for every single team will also be covered up by a confidentiality agreement from now on?


    None of it makes any sense, I'm not buying it.. the FIA are a disgrace, what a complete farce.



    TBK- I don't know why you are calling for Ferrari to be blockaded etc... ALL teams would cheat if they thought they could get away with. Its the FIA that is the real problem here.
    The emergence of the new 'Rainmaster' - Mad Max at Interlagos 2016!

  6. Likes: truefan72 (5th March 2020)
  7. #16
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    Quote Originally Posted by Zico View Post
    Why does this still sound and smell like BS?

    So the FIA claim they couldnt prove Ferrari were cheating but they still had to reach a settlement and a confidential agreement?

    If the verdict was 'not proven' why try and cover it up and in doing so make them look 100% guilty?

    So all future cheating allegations, the findings and punishments for every single team will also be covered up by a confidentiality agreement from now on?


    None of it makes any sense, I'm not buying it.. the FIA are a disgrace, what a complete farce.



    TBK- I don't know why you are calling for Ferrari to be blockaded etc... ALL teams would cheat if they thought they could get away with. Its the FIA that is the real problem here.
    the more the FIA say, the worse it seems to me. all they are doing is harming the credibility of the sport, championship and the allotted money
    RBR should finish 2nd in the championship and TBH Ferrari should be stripped of all WCC points as they essentially drove a cheating car for half the season.
    To me that is the real issue here.
    1. proper acknowledgment of the misconduct
    2. removal from the 2019 WCC with all monies returned and reallocated to the teams accordingly.

    I'm not looking for Ferrari to be blockaded.
    I'm looking for them to be punished accordingly and in a transparent manner so we all know what happened
    I would also escalate the punishment until they actually admit wrongdoing.
    The entire WCC and WDC championship was compromised after Budapest and it really is strange that this doesn't bother the FIA
    This is far worse than crashgate or spygate in my book, and how they get away with keeping points, prize money etc is really insulting to the other teams.
    you can't argue with results. 2019 FGP 2nd Place ;)

  8. Likes: Zico (5th March 2020)
  9. #17
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    The comparison with the way McLaren got treated by the FIA over the spygate affair makes this look even worse. I think that was a £100m fine (may have been $?) for them and there was no proof they had ever used any of the info in any case.

  10. Likes: truefan72 (6th March 2020),Zico (6th March 2020)
  11. #18
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    "I know you're guilty , but I can't prove it " doesn't hold up in court .

  12. Likes: airshifter (7th March 2020)
  13. #19
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    Quote Originally Posted by Bagwan View Post
    "I know you're guilty , but I can't prove it " doesn't hold up in court .
    It seems to only hold up in a court where the decision of "guilty" was determined before the fact. Call them cheaters, take away points, money, apply fines, etc...... but never prove guilt.

    After the suspicions raised last year, the FIA conducted an investigation and couldn't prove anything, even intent. They have essentially admitted that they think Ferrari found a way to cheat, but they don't understand it well enough or have evidence that they did in fact cheat. Rather than commit to long and costly litigation matters, they offered a settlement. In a "black and white" case, the litigation wouldn't be long and costly, unless Ferrari wanted to throw vast amounts of money at a losing case.

    The lack of transparency within the FIA is much more disturbing to me than any accusations against Ferrari. Behind the screams of "cheaters" last year, the FIA introduced the new directives and answered questions concerning fuel flow meters, attempts to circumvent them, etc. And while the cries of "cheaters" now switched to the chants of how Ferrari was suddenly down on power, Ferrari actually topped some of the straight line speeds on track after all that happened. Both Ferrari powered cars and Honda powered cars made big gains as compared to Mercedes, who had somehow had the dominant engine package for years without the chants of "cheaters" as they powered past their competition.


    I don't think the FIA investigation is sure of anything. I think the only people who are sure of anything are those that will apply bias towards their favored team, or against opposing teams.


    If anything at the current time, I think Ferrari have been wronged by the FIA statements. Either there was evidence of cheating or there was not. If there was evidence of "gray areas" being pushed through loopholes, clarifications should take place through further technical directives. They have recently done the same with the DAS system, and new regs prohibit it in 2021. If they was no such evidence, then the FIA should not release "gray area" statements, as it brings Ferrari into question regardless of any actual wrongdoing been known.

    Mercedes held engine advantage for years without anyone seeming to have a full understanding of how they were making that power. They appear to have been the first to surpass 50% efficiency in their cars. In a body now fuel controlled, it's just as possible that Ferrari somehow found a small advantage in efficiency, and that Honda did the same, while Mercedes stalled in development due to having been farther ahead and already having raised the bar closer to limits of current tech.






    As far as a comparison to Spygate, this is not even similar at this time IMO. The investigation into Spygate allowed drivers immunity in exchange for cooperation. It was revealed that emails between de la Rosa and Alonso discussed the information that was stolen, with sources named within them. This was after Mclaren had denied any distribution taking place.

    Renault were found to be in possession of Mclaren information, but were not fined as no evidence existed that is was ever distributed or used.

    I would fully expect that if any further investigation is taken into the current matter, and evidence of cheating is found, that Ferrari would pay a large fine and most likely be stripped of WCC points and payouts.
    Last edited by airshifter; 7th March 2020 at 14:33.

  14. #20
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    Quote Originally Posted by truefan72 View Post
    I'm looking for them to be punished accordingly and in a transparent manner so we all know what happened
    I would also escalate the punishment until they actually admit wrongdoing.
    What actual breach of regulations would you punish them for? I can't find any that state it is illegal to be accused of cheating.

    If waterboarding doesn't work, should the punishments be escalated to hanging?

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