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  1. #31
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    Whatever the future of F1 I hope Ferrari never win a championship ever again.

    https://www.autosport.com/f1/news/14...e-case-details

  2. #32
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    Quote Originally Posted by The Black Knight View Post
    Whatever the future of F1 I hope Ferrari never win a championship ever again.

    https://www.autosport.com/f1/news/14...e-case-details
    Apparently, the "settlement" between Ferrari and the FIA contains a confidentiality clause, which means that the FIA must have agreed to those terms. So it's a bit pitiful for Todt to now complain that he can't say anything.
    Ferrari have not covered itself with glory in this affair, but the FIA's role is ten times worse.
    Oct. 31, 1999 - one of the blackest days in motorsports.

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  4. #33
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    Quote Originally Posted by The Black Knight View Post
    Whatever the future of F1 I hope Ferrari never win a championship ever again.

    https://www.autosport.com/f1/news/14...e-case-details
    My feeling is Todt is talking bollocks. Can any other team on the grid impose a sanction on their information like this. I think that would be no. So what the FIA president is saying is that there is a two tier system for the imposition of the scrutiny of the FIA. Which already says the FIA is operating with discrimination to the smaller teams.

    It is not a fair competition if every team is not governed be the same rules and regulation. It is a very shameless admittance by Todt. The FIA's job is to scrutinize and ensure that every team is operating within the rules. They seem to failing to do that here.
    Last edited by Nitrodaze; 10th April 2020 at 08:31.
    Better a witty fool than a foolish wit.
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  6. #34
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    "we cannot for sure demonstrate as much as we should that they [Ferrari] were not legal'."

    That phrasing , I think , is key here .

    I'm not saying it's right , whatever they did .
    But , it simply sounds like whatever proof there was , wasn't absolutely definitive , and so , forcing them to divulge engine secrets , especially when they are mandating a separate fix in the new metering , seems a bit Draconian .

    So , Todt whining about this is not odd , as the other teams are up his nose about it , people are crying about a red bias , and Ferrari aren't interested in any such idea , as they haven't been charged with this crime , as there evidently isn't enough proof .
    He's between a rock and a hard place . It's in the rules .

  7. #35
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    Quote Originally Posted by Bagwan View Post
    "we cannot for sure demonstrate as much as we should that they [Ferrari] were not legal'."

    That phrasing , I think , is key here .

    I'm not saying it's right , whatever they did .
    But , it simply sounds like whatever proof there was , wasn't absolutely definitive , and so , forcing them to divulge engine secrets , especially when they are mandating a separate fix in the new metering , seems a bit Draconian .

    So , Todt whining about this is not odd , as the other teams are up his nose about it , people are crying about a red bias , and Ferrari aren't interested in any such idea , as they haven't been charged with this crime , as there evidently isn't enough proof .
    He's between a rock and a hard place . It's in the rules .
    I hear you. But the FIA do not need to divulge engine secrets. They only need to explain what they suspected might have broken the rules and what they did to scrutinize it. And why they have found it inconclusive without giving details about the design. Yes, that information would be enough information for teams to workout what Ferrari is doing but not how they have kept it within the rules. I am sure that information would be challenged by some teams that want more information of the design secret. But the FIA would be blameless at this point and they can safely ignore any further grovelling.

    The current situation is that, the FIA has not given the teams enough [satisfactory] information about how they arrived at an inconclusive scrutiny. I personally do not think Ferrari has anything to be criticized for. They have come up with a design that is within the rules. It is up to the FIA to say ortherwise. Until The FIA does, Ferrari is blameless. And it would be unfair to accuse them of cheating or for anything else.

    It is simple, if the FIA takes an interest in an aspect of a teams car, enough to investigate it, they; the FIA are obliged to notify all the other teams what their investigation was about and their conclusions.
    Last edited by Nitrodaze; 10th April 2020 at 08:34.
    Better a witty fool than a foolish wit.
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  9. #36
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    Quote Originally Posted by Nitrodaze View Post
    I hear you. But the FIA do not need to divulge engine secrets. They only need to explain what they suspected might have broken the rules and what they did to scrutinize it. And why they have found it inconclusive without giving details about the design. Yes, that information would be enough information for teams to workout what Ferrari is doing but not how they have kept it within the rules. I am sure that information would be challenged by some teams that want more information of the design secret. But the FIA would be blameless at this point and they can safely ignore any further grovelling.

    The current situation is that, the FIA has not given the teams enough [satisfactory] information about how they arrived at an inconclusive scrutiny. I personally do not think Ferrari has anything to be criticized for. They have come up with a design that is within the rules. It is up to the FIA to say ortherwise. Until The FIA does, Ferrari is blameless. And it would be unfair to accuse them of cheating or for anything else.

    It is simple, if the FIA takes an interest in an aspect of a teams car, enough to investigate it, they; the FIA are obliged to notify all the other teams what their investigation was about and their conclusions.
    If they plainly state they cannot demonstrate conclusively that the reds were doing anything illegal , then what right should they have at all to demand they disclose anything at all ?

    I suspect that the FIA were flirting with law suits when Todt used the phrase "as much as we should" in that quote .
    It insinuates guilt that they cannot prove . That's dangerous , as is insinuating anything nefarious about Ferrari not giving up information , when they are not obligated to do so .

    In this situation , they were clever enough to escape capture , and thus , must be deemed within the rules .
    They are suspects in a crime that could not be proven to have happened .

    Some may see it as clever , and some as dishonest and cheating . That's what fans do .

    I don't believe that any of the teams protested officially , but were quick to complain at the conclusion of the investigation .
    So , they had no right to know anything about it , as far as I can see .
    Please correct me if I'm wrong about this last point , by all means .

  10. #37
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    Quote Originally Posted by Bagwan View Post
    I don't believe that any of the teams protested officially , but were quick to complain at the conclusion of the investigation .
    So , they had no right to know anything about it , as far as I can see .
    Please correct me if I'm wrong about this last point , by all means .
    Well, there were clear suggestion by the teams that Ferrari may be burning oil to boost the power output of their engines. The smokey Ferrari at the start of the 2018 season was a clear telltale sign that there was something amiss with the Ferrari engine. These murmuring were enough to give the FIA cause to investigate the Ferrari engine. What the teams were hoping to hear at the end of the investigation was whether Ferrari was or was not burning oil in its combustion chambers.

    I think it would be inaccurate to say the teams have no rights to complain. They have every right to do so. Because if Ferrari is found to be burning oil in the combustion chamber of its engine, then Ferrari is not using the fuel composition as stipulated in the regulation which every other team have complied with. They would be gaining an unfair advantage by boosting their engine power with oil mixed into the fuel fed into the comnbustion chamber of their engines. That would produce more effective torque in the powertrain. Hence, would be illegal.

    The problem here is that the FIA has failed to answer the question; Is Ferrari burning oil in the combustion chambers of its engine?

    Every team on the grid is entitled to that answer. The state of affairs is now such that the FIA is indirectly accusing Ferrari of cheating by saying it is inconclusive. They are simply saying that they might be burning oil but we don't know how they are doing it. Since they can't prove it, they are now trying to use public opinion to force Ferrari to clear the air by publicly explaining how their combustion process works.

    It effectively is a stalemate; Ferrari must give up their competitive advantage or be seen to be cheats. Or the FIA looking incompetent at scrutinizing engine infraction of the regulations or publicly say there was no rules broken by the Ferrari engine.
    Last edited by Nitrodaze; 10th April 2020 at 19:58.
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  11. #38
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    Or the FIA looking incompetent...
    I think that ship has sailed... right into an iceberg.
    "Every generation's memory is exactly as long as its own experience." --John Kenneth Galbraith

  12. #39
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    Quote Originally Posted by Bagwan View Post
    I suspect that the FIA were flirting with law suits when Todt used the phrase "as much as we should" in that quote .
    It insinuates guilt that they cannot prove . That's dangerous , as is insinuating anything nefarious about Ferrari not giving up information , when they are not obligated to do so .
    Baggy, the other thing to bear in mind is that, every team is now uncomfortable exposing their design secrets to FIA scrutinizers since these scrutinizers are being poached from the FIA because of the valuable knowledge that they have of every team's designs and secrets. FIA officials taking up jobs with teams after a few years of scrutinizing was always going to be problematic. If Ferrari appears to be cagey about their engine design, this may be one of the main factors for that.

    In truth, it is a difficult situation for both the FIA and Ferrari. I have a feeling that we shall be seeing more of these inconclusive investigations in the future as teams try to conseal their competitive advantage from FIA scrutineers. Not necessarily to cheat but to protect intellectual property, as we are now finding with Ferrari.

    FIA officials taking up jobs in Teams has weekened the trust between the FIA and the teams. I personally think any official of the FIA should not be allowed to work for any team or applicant teams. Of course this poses a problem for the FIA to attract talented engineers to work for them, which they usually source from staff of teams anyway. The situation is a bad case of "Conflict of Interest".
    Last edited by Nitrodaze; 12th April 2020 at 14:04.
    Better a witty fool than a foolish wit.
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  13. #40
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    Quote Originally Posted by Jag_Warrior View Post
    I think that ship has sailed... right into an iceberg.
    I kinda see that as really the gist of it , yeah .

    They declared them guilty at the same time as saying they couldn't be charged .
    I'd be some pissed if I were in red shoes .

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