All aboard Max's hype train or not?

[The Black Knight]

I was actually replying to TBK who said.. "I haven’t seen anything to suggest he has more raw speed than Bottas, let alone be on the level of Hamilton or Alonso even."

Sorry... should have quoted him to make that clear.


My point is that Bottas, other than the odd good qualy and race, is just not known for having raw pace in abundance... how anyone can seriously suggest he looks like he would be quicker than Max is quite frankly laughable.

But how much of a real known quantity is Max really?

He's only had Ricciardo as a teammate worth talking about in RBR. Ricciardo was regarded as a benchmark because he beat Vettel but, as can be seen by Leclerc this year, beating Vettel is not a difficult achievement for a F1 driver and Vettel is far from the fastest guy on the grid. He's a pretty good driver but one that was lucky to land himself a great car for 4 years and won the championship. I must admit though, I think this year along with 2014 was actually Riccardo's most impressive going to Renault and comprehensively outpacing Hulkenberg.

Max has only had 2 pole positions. Ricciardo in the same car had 3 pole positions during their time as teammates, so if Max is this talented raw speed driver, then he should certainly have more than 2 poles to his name but he hasn't. Qualifying is the benchmark for raw speed and Max has a lot to show there. Bottas on the other hand has 11 pole positions and 7 wins to his name. Max should at least have 6 or 7 pole positions to his name by now but he has 2. Sorry lads, but this Max hype train is nothing other than a bandwagon that people have jumped on because others say so. Looking at the evidence, he certainly has the potential and position within the sport to show this much flaunted raw speed we hear about but, to date, he has only shown it in patches and he certainly hasn't shown enough to prove he has more raw speed than Hamilton or Alonso. I think either of those drivers from the 2010s would easily rip him apart over the course of a season.

[Zico]

But how much of a real known quantity is Max really?

He's only had Ricciardo as a teammate worth talking about in RBR. Ricciardo was regarded as a benchmark because he beat Vettel but, as can be seen by Leclerc this year, beating Vettel is not a difficult achievement for a F1 driver and Vettel is far from the fastest guy on the grid. He's a pretty good driver but one that was lucky to land himself a great car for 4 years and won the championship. I must admit though, I think this year along with 2014 was actually Riccardo's most impressive going to Renault and comprehensively outpacing Hulkenberg.

Max has only had 2 pole positions. Ricciardo in the same car had 3 pole positions during their time as teammates, so if Max is this talented raw speed driver, then he should certainly have more than 2 poles to his name but he hasn't. Qualifying is the benchmark for raw speed and Max has a lot to show there. Bottas on the other hand has 11 pole positions and 7 wins to his name. Max should at least have 6 or 7 pole positions to his name by now but he has 2. Sorry lads, but this Max hype train is nothing other than a bandwagon that people have jumped on because others say so. Looking at the evidence, he certainly has the potential and position within the sport to show this much flaunted raw speed we hear about but, to date, he has only shown it in patches and he certainly hasn't shown enough to prove he has more raw speed than Hamilton or Alonso. I think either of those drivers from the 2010s would easily rip him apart over the course of a season.

Pole vs pole positions only shows that the car was also working well and suited to these circuits... and a mere 5 point data snapshot hardly tells the full story.

Your benchmark for pace has to be your qualifying position vs your team mate.... I guess Verstappen qualifying ahead 14 vs 4 for tbe 2018 season doesnt suit your narrative though.

Who is quicker between Hamilton and Verstappen? I think it would be close but of course nobody knows...

The only point I'm trying to make is that you comparing Max to Valteri pacewise is just.. whaaaat???
If I was a betting man I'd put big money on Verstappen outqualifying Bottas over the course of a season if they were team mates. I'd have no doubts about that at all.

[journeyman racer]

Hahahahaha Oh dear, how can one get such a sore arse so easily as TBK???

To boost Hamilton, Ricciardo is just a guy who's won 7 races. But to denigrate Verstappen, Ricciardo is now a good enough marker. What a dumbarse!

Idk how Verstappen would go? He's never driven the best car in the field for six season straight like Hamilton just has. A luxury no other driver has been afforded in the history of F1. (Never mind including the McLaren in 07 & 08).

Hamilton lucky he's not a Renault atm, Because Hulkenberg's reputation would be elevated after Ricciardo flogs him. Then all of you would be confused.

In light of the mika Hakkinen podcast I linked in the other thread, I think Zico's opinion of Bottas is harsh. The host of the podcast makes a pertinent point form 28:00-28:20.

[Nitrodaze]

I have to say though, that Verstapenn has not been given the credit that he deserves for his performance this 2019 season. With the Redbull, he managed to finish third in the driver's championship ahead of the two Ferrari drivers; Leclerc and Vettel. And was keeping Bottas on his toes all throughout the season. It is a phenomenal achievement and goes to show what a talent he is. This is every indication that in a championship winning car, he would be very hard to beat. That said, so would Leclerc in a championship winning Ferrari.

[The Black Knight]

Pole vs pole positions only shows that the car was also working well and suited to these circuits... and a mere 5 point data snapshot hardly tells the full story.

Your benchmark for pace has to be your qualifying position vs your team mate.... I guess Verstappen qualifying ahead 14 vs 4 for tbe 2018 season doesnt suit your narrative though.

Who is quicker between Hamilton and Verstappen? I think it would be close but of course nobody knows...

The only point I'm trying to make is that you comparing Max to Valteri pacewise is just.. whaaaat???
If I was a betting man I'd put big money on Verstappen outqualifying Bottas over the course of a season if they were team mates. I'd have no doubts about that at all.

The point I'm making is that we're comparing Max to what benchmark and known quantity really? Hamilton has had multiple world championships as teammates and, apart from 2011 blip where he as beaten fair square by Jenson, and 2016 reliability, he has comfortably had the measure of them all. Verstappen has had no such reference point. If I sat into a RBR car, I'd be pretty sure Verstappen would beat me 20/20 throughout the course of the season, that doesn't make him great just because I don't have the skills to match him, much like Gasly didn't. Albon probably does, and we'll find out more next year but I think Albon shaped up pretty well to Max given the circumstances. And lets not forget Sainz and Max were neck and neck in Toro Rosso and there wasn't anything really suggesting one was better than the other.

[journeyman racer]

Don't forget. Rosberg would've beaten Hamilton in 2013 if it weren't for reliability, and team orders.

edit: A way to closer define the contexts of performance, you'd have to find as many reasonable comparisons as possible.

From 2017-19, Verstappen had driven cars that finished 3rd in the wcc 3 times.

He's finished 6th, 4th & 3rd in those seasons with 7 wins and 2pp.

Accounting for the fact McLaren were disqualified from the 07 wcc, and otherwise would've won, the only times Hamilton has driven a car lower than 2nd in the wcc (13 seasons) was 09 & 12.

Also accounting for the weird season 09 was, with various teams having fluctuations in form, we're going to allow McLaren extreme competitiveness in the second half of 09 offset by their extreme lack of competitiveness (Alonso scored more points than Hamilton, prior to McLaren getting their act together, in the 8th placed Renault. )

With this in mind. Hamilton finished 5th & 4th in those seasons, 5 wins and 11pp.

Facts you may want to take into account.

Hamilton has beaten 2 guys who drove a car that finished ahead of his in the wcc, being Massa and Webber in 2012. But he was also beaten by Raikkonen, driving a car that finished lower than Hamilton's that year.

Verstappen has finished ahead of 3 guys that drove cars that finished ahead of his in the wcc. He'd never been beaten by someone with a car that finished lower in the wcc.

[Nitrodaze]

Don't forget. Rosberg would've beaten Hamilton in 2013 if it weren't for reliability, and team orders.

edit: A way to closer define the contexts of performance, you'd have to find as many reasonable comparisons as possible.

From 2017-19, Verstappen had driven cars that finished 3rd in the wcc 3 times.

He's finished 6th, 4th & 3rd in those seasons with 7 wins and 2pp.

Accounting for the fact McLaren were disqualified from the 07 wcc, and otherwise would've won, the only times Hamilton has driven a car lower than 2nd in the wcc (13 seasons) was 09 & 12.

Also accounting for the weird season 09 was, with various teams having fluctuations in form, we're going to allow McLaren extreme competitiveness in the second half of 09 offset by there extreme lack of competitiveness (Alonso scored more points than Hamilton, prior to McLaren getting their act together, in the 8th placed Renault. )

With this in mind. Hamilton finished 5th & 4th in those seasons, 5 wins and 11pp.

Facts you may want to take into account.

Hamilton has beaten 2 guys who drove a car that finished ahead of his in the wcc, being Massa and Webber in 2012. But he was also beaten by Raikkonen, driving a car that finished lower than Hamilton's that year.

Verstappen has finished ahead of 3 guys that drove cars that finished ahead of his in the wcc. He'd never been beaten by someone with a car that finished lower in the wcc.

Sorry dude, you make it very hard for anyone to take you seriously with these sort of posts. You are not some sweaty faced kids making these post now are you?

[journeyman racer]

Sorry dude, you make it very hard for anyone to take you seriously with these sort of posts.

What is it that you don't like about my comparisons? They are fair stats. Verstappen has never driven a top 2 wcc car. He's mainly driven a car 3rd in the wcc. Hamilton has had two seasons in a car that's 3rd in the wcc.

What do you think is a better comparison?

You are not some sweaty faced kids making these post now are you?

Nope.

[Zico]

The point I'm making is that we're comparing Max to what benchmark and known quantity really? Hamilton has had multiple world championships as teammates and, apart from 2011 blip where he as beaten fair square by Jenson, and 2016 reliability, he has comfortably had the measure of them all. Verstappen has had no such reference point. If I sat into a RBR car, I'd be pretty sure Verstappen would beat me 20/20 throughout the course of the season, that doesn't make him great just because I don't have the skills to match him, much like Gasly didn't. Albon probably does, and we'll find out more next year but I think Albon shaped up pretty well to Max given the circumstances. And lets not forget Sainz and Max were neck and neck in Toro Rosso and there wasn't anything really suggesting one was better than the other.

I wasnt comparing Max with Lewis. Its you who reckons that Bottas is quicker than Max.

Max beat Ricciardo who beat Vettel..a 4 time WDC.
Bottas beat Massa but was beaten by Hamilton.

Other than yourself I think most F1 fans would recognise that Max has a more impressive record than Bottas. I dont know why you see that as a mark against Lewis though.

[Zico]

The point I'm making is that we're comparing Max to what benchmark and known quantity really? Hamilton has had multiple world championships as teammates and, apart from 2011 blip where he as beaten fair square by Jenson, and 2016 reliability, he has comfortably had the measure of them all. Verstappen has had no such reference point. If I sat into a RBR car, I'd be pretty sure Verstappen would beat me 20/20 throughout the course of the season, that doesn't make him great just because I don't have the skills to match him, much like Gasly didn't. Albon probably does, and we'll find out more next year but I think Albon shaped up pretty well to Max given the circumstances. And lets not forget Sainz and Max were neck and neck in Toro Rosso and there wasn't anything really suggesting one was better than the other.

I wasnt comparing Max with Lewis. Its you who reckons that Bottas is quicker than Max.

Max beat Ricciardo who beat Vettel..a 4 time WDC.
Bottas beat Massa but was beaten by Hamilton.

Other than yourself I think most F1 fans would recognise that Max has a more impressive record than Bottas. I dont know why you see that as a mark against Lewis though.