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Thread: WRC future

  1. #41
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    Yeah I mean, who has electricity at home right?

    Appart from cheap trolling that statement like the above invite to, it does take a lot of time to change cars on the road. Here with 5+ years of big EV sales (over 50% of new cars for the last months) they still only make some 8% of the total ammount of cars on the road.

  2. #42
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    Quote Originally Posted by Mirek View Post
    Yes, Europe is totally unprepared for full electrification of the traffic. Nothing is prepared for that and with the speed of decision-making processes in EU this will take decades.
    I am not talking about what tech will majority of cars be based on in few years, i am talking about where marketing focus will be. Full electrification surely will take time. But think about how things have progressed during past few years. Some 3-5 years ago there were handful of full EVs which were more cool noveltys and less as everybodys viable option. Today most manufacturers are launching new EV models with double the range we had couple of years ago. Now fast forward another 2-5 years - by then even hybrid, not only IC engine would be yesterdays news. Sure, they will probably still be sold, most cars on roads are still non-EVs, but surely majority of PR will go towards top models, which will be EVs. And if WRC does not provide marketing opportunity to support this EV-focused marketing, then this is pointless expense for manufacturers. By then there will probably be full-EV RX series, Formula E might eclipse F1, maybe some other series will go electric - and this would be more lucrative for manufacturers then as this supports their marketing focus. We considered that current situation with 3,5 manufacturers is "good times", i would say sights are set too low. WRC should have 5 manufacturers at least. FIA shouldnt ask from current manufacturers what they want, but from companies who are not here yet but who are in forefront of EV development - Tesla, Nissan, Mitsubishi, VW, Audi etc.

    PS i know i am dreaming here and historical experience doesnt support such big change but then we are living in interesting times...

  3. #43
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    Quote Originally Posted by Indreq View Post
    I am not talking about what tech will majority of cars be based on in few years, i am talking about where marketing focus will be. Full electrification surely will take time. But think about how things have progressed during past few years. Some 3-5 years ago there were handful of full EVs which were more cool noveltys and less as everybodys viable option. Today most manufacturers are launching new EV models with double the range we had couple of years ago. Now fast forward another 2-5 years - by then even hybrid, not only IC engine would be yesterdays news. Sure, they will probably still be sold, most cars on roads are still non-EVs, but surely majority of PR will go towards top models, which will be EVs. And if WRC does not provide marketing opportunity to support this EV-focused marketing, then this is pointless expense for manufacturers. By then there will probably be full-EV RX series, Formula E might eclipse F1, maybe some other series will go electric - and this would be more lucrative for manufacturers then as this supports their marketing focus. We considered that current situation with 3,5 manufacturers is "good times", i would say sights are set too low. WRC should have 5 manufacturers at least. FIA shouldnt ask from current manufacturers what they want, but from companies who are not here yet but who are in forefront of EV development - Tesla, Nissan, Mitsubishi, VW, Audi etc.

    PS i know i am dreaming here and historical experience doesnt support such big change but then we are living in interesting times...
    But as you say, things are moving soo fast nowadays that perhaps even EVs will be yesterday news in 10 years time , or perhaps they will be just another option on the market.

  4. #44
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    Quote Originally Posted by Mirek View Post
    Yes, Europe is totally unprepared for full electrification of the traffic. Nothing is prepared for that and with the speed of decision-making processes in EU this will take decades.
    It depends on electricity infrastrukture along the highway/motorway network. In Norway we now see the first gasstation chain that start building large scale rapidcharger network on their filling stations. So you can fill oil products or El-Product on your car.
    The Norwegian government left it tp private companies to take the risk of building the rapid charger network. I as a customer have a RFID-Piece that work on any of them, as long as I have registererd my debet or creditcard with them.

    Now we have gooten to the point that drivers no longer have "range-fear" but "que-fear" since many are rapid-charging.

    But to get ev salesnumbers up, governments need to kick it off with subsidies, otherwise EVs will not sell in numners being more expensive to buy that comparable a oilburner. Again it boils down to money. Even if we see and feel climate change around the globe

  5. #45
    Senior Member Mirek's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by mknight View Post
    Yeah I mean, who has electricity at home right?
    Ehm...

    1) Hundreds of thousands of cars park in the streets and in parking lots in the cities. Your electricity at home is useful as a coat for a dead man in that case.
    2) The existing and often very old power grid is not designed for the rise of power consumption if we speak about millions of new cars where thousands are concentrated in the same streets. The existing power grids in many European countries are pretty unstable already now (Germany for example).
    3) Don't know how it is in other countries but if You have normal electrical plug 230V you can't go over 16A which means that You need something like 24 hours to charge Tesla. If you have 400V/16A 3-phase plug (I guess that nobody has that in city blocks of flats) you are still fucked with some cars which don't support 3-phase charger (BMW i3 for example), i.e. you are still limited to 16A and pretty much fucked with any at least moderately fast charging. If you have 400V/32A plug you are lucky but who has that at home?
    4) I am not an electrician but our power grid here in CZ is working that way that the more or less constant power from the nuclear power plants, which is redundant in the night, is used to pump water into the massive hydro station which then during the day helps to overcome the peaks and further stabilize the grid. What if suddenly several million people start to plug their cars at night? Will it still work? I have doubts about that.
    5) There is no charging network present on the highways. By simple math you need many times more charging capacity on the motorways than of the fuel stations due to the time needed for charging. Nothing like that exists.
    Stupid is as stupid does. Forrest Gump

  6. Likes: cali (18th November 2019)
  7. #46
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    Quote Originally Posted by Mirek View Post
    Ehm...

    1) Hundreds of thousands of cars park in the streets and in parking lots in the cities. Your electricity at home is useful as a coat for a dead man in that case.
    2) The existing and often very old power grid is not designed for the rise of power consumption if we speak about millions of new cars where thousands are concentrated in the same streets. The existing power grids in many European countries are pretty unstable already now (Germany for example).
    3) Don't know how it is in other countries but if You have normal electrical plug 230V you can't go over 16A which means that You need something like 24 hours to charge Tesla. If you have 400V/16A 3-phase plug (I guess that nobody has that in city blocks of flats) you are still fucked with some cars which don't support 3-phase charger (BMW i3 for example), i.e. you are still limited to 16A and pretty much fucked with any at least moderately fast charging. If you have 400V/32A plug you are lucky but who has that at home?
    4) I am not an electrician but our power grid here in CZ is working that way that the more or less constant power from the nuclear power plants, which is redundant in the night, is used to pump water into the massive hydro station which then during the day helps to overcome the peaks and further stabilize the grid. What if suddenly several million people start to plug their cars at night? Will it still work? I have doubts about that.
    5) There is no charging network present on the highways. By simple math you need many times more charging capacity on the motorways than of the fuel stations due to the time needed for charging. Nothing like that exists.
    These are challenges but not unsolvable.
    1. This depends on location. In Estonia no new multi-appartment buildings get building permits without building also certain number of parking places. As there is usually street lighting nearby, bringing power outlets to parking places is minor additional investment.
    2. Again, depends on location and situation. On one hand, increase of usage of more energy efficient light bulbs and appliances, renovation of houses to be more efficient etc helps to keep increase of power demand under control. Also, power lines are upgraded and renovated over time, they dont stay same.
    3. Thats true but this can be partly solved by using short-term storage based on capacitor/battery combination, which slowly charges itself when not in used and rapidly discharges when in use.
    4. In near future big part of this kind of balancing will be done by demand-response VPP's - virtual power plants. These pilots are successfully running in several countries and more resourses are plugged into these every day. To certain extent even plugged-in EVs can participate in such systems.
    5. Trust the market. When there is demand, supply will follow shortly. At least in Estonia in addition to already existing state-owned network several private owned charging projects are already in operation or in construction. Also in several countries "charger-uber"-like solutions are live - everybody can own charger and connect them into bigger network, so small investors can enter into this market.

  8. #47
    Senior Member Mirek's Avatar
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    I don't know if you understand the scale of the changes which is needed. It's nice that new projects rose but this is completely out of reach for any private project. Today with the new projects we are talking about numbers which are not even a tenth of a single percent of all running cars. You can't argument that with new building projects etc. it will be different when millions of flats and houses are here and they are here to stay. The cars are to stay in the streets for decades as well. Maybe if EU was China the party would tell and things would move but in EU it will take ages because nobody will agree on anything so we will keep discussing for about forever.
    Stupid is as stupid does. Forrest Gump

  9. Likes: cali (18th November 2019),pantealex (18th November 2019)
  10. #48
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    A lot needs to be done for EVs to be as clean as some preach, just one example:

    https://twitter.com/harrym_vids/stat...294245888?s=19

    Ofcourse this depends on location and time, obviously.

  11. Likes: cali (18th November 2019)
  12. #49
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    What is really good with EVs, is that they will help increase air quality in cities. The pollution is outsourced instead (factories, energy production)

    Sent from my F8331 using Tapatalk

  13. #50
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    Burning cars and houses pollute on the otherhand more...and they tend to do that. It's a closed dead circle, then you eat more pollution for example. Besides, a car in good nick doesn't pollute much at all. But battery technology and powerproduction do it terribly...

    It`s just like 50s-60s cigarettes, doctors approved that smoking is good for you, in commercials.

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