WRC future

[cali]

Stand on a busy city corner during cold winter morning and tell me cars without exhaust are just a perception of green.

It's a very narrow view about electric cars. Just a food for a thought. How are batteries made? How much resources are needed? At some point you need to utilize this toxic waste. Where and how? In Norway and in Finland i guess too you get more "green" electricity, but the rest of the world still burns something to get electricity. And now I even don't need to touch the real issue when more cars go electric you need to rebuild all the infrastucture (very very thick cabling, more substations etc)

Still green? I read a recent study where it's not so green anymore. Actually they state that petrol cars are now more "green".

Until we go hydrogen don't blabber about "green" electric cars. If you don't see a smoke from the cars tailpipe, it necessary doesn't mean that this vehicle is green.



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[mknight]

- For local polution electric cars are green, no perception there

- For CO2 as you write, it depends entirely on how the electricity is made. I also like reading studies on the matter, some are well made ( usually those where you can see all inputs and calculations), quite a few are just clickbait-level

All the serious studies show that on current european/EU energy mix electric cars are greener than petrol already now (given they drive at least 150k ish km over their life). Doesn't mean they are automatically greener elsewhere.

[cali]

- For local polution electric cars are green, no perception there

- For CO2 as you write, it depends entirely on how the electricity is made. I also like reading studies on the matter, some are well made ( usually those where you can see all inputs and calculations), quite a few are just clickbait-level

All the serious studies show that on current european/EU energy mix electric cars are greener than petrol already now (given they drive at least 150k ish km over their life). Doesn't mean they are automatically greener elsewhere.

Just wait when electric cars are more popluar. More issues will rise.

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[mknight]

Just wait when electric cars are more popluar. More issues will rise.

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In this country they are. (Continously over 50% of new car sales for last two years, 350 000+ cars on the road).

Still waiting for the issues that people from countries where there are close to no electric cars talk about...

[cali]

In this country they are. (Continously over 50% of new car sales for last two years, 350 000+ cars on the road).

Still waiting for the issues that people from countries where there are close to no electric cars talk about...

Get back to me if you have most of the cars electric, not just new car sales.

This thing is discussed so many times with an engineer who works for ABB. Complete revamp of electrical infrastructure is needed.

EDIT: sales in NO are heavily subsidied by govt if I'm not mistaken

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[mknight]

Nobody is saying that you don't need charging stations etc. But even with over 50% electric sales it takes many years for most cars on the road to be electric. (here it's some 12% atm).

This gives the time to build infrastructure to cope. If the buildup is too slow, electric car sales slow down (for the benefit of hybrids) and then increase again.

The idea shared by some people (mostly from countries with no electric cars around) that "suddenly" everyone will realize that electric cars are wrong and go back to petrol-only is like believing in Santa.

[cali]

Nobody is saying that you don't need charging stations etc. But even with over 50% electric sales it takes many years for most cars on the road to be electric. (here it's some 12% atm).

This gives the time to build infrastructure to cope. If the buildup is too slow, electric car sales slow down (for the benefit of hybrids) and then increase again.

The idea shared by some people (mostly from countries with no electric cars around) that "suddenly" everyone will realize that electric cars are wrong and go back to petrol-only is like believing in Santa.

No no you just didn't understand. As more power is required and drawed from system you need way more thicker cabling. More substations to meet the demands. Today as it is it's fine, but sooner or later more and bigger is needed everywhere. Also this can cause energy crisis. Solar and wind is not enough. Burning gas, coal or smth else is not an option. More nuclear? &

I'm not saying we should return to petrol but we need more sustainable as hydrogen or smth similar.

With electric we will cause more problems for the future. They are just different kind of problems as compared to petrol (battery dumping, Ni and Cobalt mining etc). Both are not smart. Not green or sustainable for the future. That's what I'm saying. We just eliminate one problem so we can have more problems in the future.

Calling electric cars green is just so wrong and hypocrite.

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[mknight]

Now you are starting to mix things together and even contradict yourself:

- primary power source is an issue. I guess most people agree that pumping dead dinosaurs is not sustainable in the long term.
Electricity in a battery, hydrogen or synthetic fuel is just a transport medium. Out of these batteries are at the moment most efficient and I don't see that changing in near future (15-20 years), but off course it's possible it will change at some point.

- "cabling" is an issue that can be slowly compensated for, as the demand grows. Load balancing is in many ways the fastest solution (no charging when energy demand is highest in the evening or early morning). To compare with hydrogen you would need to include distribution (by lorries?), production is already handled in previous point. Thing is, there is an existing electric grid that you can use and upgrade... there is no "hydrogen grid".

- battery production and end of life, that is the area that experiences most changes. Some problematic minerals are less and less used in battery production already. On the other end of the line old batteries are not thrown to trash after few years but often used for many years for other uses (for example for solar/wind power balancing) after they are taken out from the car. In the end you have a concentrated "brick of pollution" of some 200kg in 4x2x0,2 m instead of "tiny" pollution distributed all over the atmosphere (CO2, NOX...) and inside people's lungs (particles).

[cali]

Now you are starting to mix things together and even contradict yourself:

- primary power source is an issue. I guess most people agree that pumping dead dinosaurs is not sustainable in the long term.
Electricity in a battery, hydrogen or synthetic fuel is just a transport medium. Out of these batteries are at the moment most efficient and I don't see that changing in near future (15-20 years), but off course it's possible it will change at some point.

- "cabling" is an issue that can be slowly compensated for, as the demand grows. Load balancing is in many ways the fastest solution (no charging when energy demand is highest in the evening or early morning). To compare with hydrogen you would need to include distribution (by lorries?), production is already handled in previous point. Thing is, there is an existing electric grid that you can use and upgrade... there is no "hydrogen grid".

- battery production and end of life, that is the area that experiences most changes. Some problematic minerals are less and less used in battery production already. On the other end of the line old batteries are not thrown to trash after few years but often used for many years for other uses (for example for solar/wind power balancing) after they are taken out from the car. In the end you have a concentrated "brick of pollution" of some 200kg in 4x2x0,2 m instead of "tiny" pollution distributed all over the atmosphere (CO2, NOX...) and inside people's lungs (particles).

Read my post again and try to unferstand it better, not just the way it suits you better.

My last answer to you, had enough of your out of context hypocrisy. There's real issues out there with electric cars and you are just trying to win an arguement. Go ahead, I'm not competing with your fantasies.

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[mknight]

Read my post again and try to unferstand it better, not just the way it suits you better.

My last answer to you, had enough of your out of context hypocrisy. There's real issues out there with electric cars and you are just trying to win an arguement. Go ahead, I'm not competing with your fantasies.

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No you are competing with reality. When it doesn't follow your dreams you keep hoping a miracle happens.

I was skeptical to electric cars for whole lots of reason, but I am not blind to the reality right outside of my window (literally, parking spot with 40 cars, 18 are electric right now + 7 hybrids).