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Thread: WRC future

  1. #941
    Senior Member Sulland's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Mirek View Post
    My three cents

    1) Actual electric sports or race cars have extremely short range when pushed to the maximum. Forget about road range of stock cars, that's completely different scale of power drained from the batteries. There is no info about battery capacity but considering the vehicle weight I am pretty sure it can not do a typical WRC loop, possibly not even one half.
    The only way a e-rallycar could work on todays battery tech is with a battery switch system in place. Either by brand or common for all. For a common system to work, thay all have to agree on battery shape, and that will not happen I guess.
    As said before, the only "off track" motorsport that electric cars could work is Rallycross, and hyperquick charging ala Porsche;
    Up to 270 kW using its 800-volt architecture to achieve a range of up to 100 km (WLTP) in 5 minutes under optimum conditions.

  2. #942
    Senior Member Mirek's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Sulland View Post
    The only way a e-rallycar could work on todays battery tech is with a battery switch system in place. Either by brand or common for all. For a common system to work, thay all have to agree on battery shape, and that will not happen I guess.
    As said before, the only "off track" motorsport that electric cars could work is Rallycross, and hyperquick charging ala Porsche;
    Up to 270 kW using its 800-volt architecture to achieve a range of up to 100 km (WLTP) in 5 minutes under optimum conditions.
    100 km WLTP is around 5-10 km of race regime...

    270 kW charger is nice thing on paper. Now imagine you need to charge dozens of batteries at the same time at the same place. Would you build a power plant in the service park or how are you going to do that?
    Last edited by Mirek; 4th November 2020 at 13:57.
    Stupid is as stupid does. Forrest Gump

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  4. #943
    Senior Member Fast Eddie WRC's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by AnttiL View Post
    Hayden Paddon @HaydenPaddon

    Couldn’t agree more. As much as we all love the current cars they are not sustainable commercially. The sport is driven by manufacturers - without them there is no WRC. It’s pretty clear what path manufacturers are taking, and they should all be using WRC/Motorsport as a test bed.

  5. #944
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    Quote Originally Posted by Mirek View Post
    100 km WLTP is around 5-10 km of race regime...

    270 kW charger is nice thing on paper. Now imagine you need to charge dozens of batteries at the same time at the same place. Would you build a power plant in the service park or how are you going to do that?
    Porsche already has a solution for this, a trailer with 2.1 MWh battery pack that can charge 10 cars simultaneously with full power (350 kW). This could be used even at stage ends for example.
    https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=a6lm...%C3%B8rnNyland
    https://newsroom.porsche.com/en/2020...ces-22285.html
    Last edited by Tanelv; 4th November 2020 at 14:40.

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    Senior Member er88's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by drive View Post
    Jesus. The state of that...., my washing machine is louder. I wouldn't waste the time and money to venture out in the stages to watch something like that....., surely there could be ways to add some "noise"?

  7. #946
    Senior Member Rally Power's Avatar
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    It’s incredible how this full EV’s BS is rising, in motorsport and on daily life; no one can be sure of the mid and long time effects of BEV’s use, considering full life emissions cycle (from factory to junkyard), recycling issues or grid expansion costs. Once this is mainly a politically driven process, I bet in 10 years we’ll be facing even higher CO2 emissions, plus huge battery pollution and electricity prices rising througt the roof.

    On this electric Kona effect in Rally, let’s please not take it too seriously; Paddon is basically promoting his proto without knowing that it can work on real rally conditions, unless we turn the sport into a joke (with Mickey Mouse stages and endless service breaks for battery swap or recharge).

    Hybrids are the future for top motorsport series, like F1, WEC, Imsa and even Nascar (from ’22) are showing; let’s not destroy Rally just for trying to be ahead of time.
    Last edited by Rally Power; 4th November 2020 at 21:38.
    Rally addict since 1982

  8. #947
    Senior Member Mirek's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Tanelv View Post
    Porsche already has a solution for this, a trailer with 2.1 MWh battery pack that can charge 10 cars simultaneously with full power (350 kW). This could be used even at stage ends for example.
    https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=a6lm...%C3%B8rnNyland
    https://newsroom.porsche.com/en/2020...ces-22285.html
    Some math for an overall perception of the problem. Please don't kill me for using very rough estimates. If there are better numbers, I will happily adjust the results.

    If we have 10 WRC cars doing 350 km of stages at average power consumption 150 kW (no idea how it would be in reality) and 1000 km of liaison at average 30 kW, doing some 100 km/h average on stage and 50 km/h average on liaison, and if we consider to have 20% unused battery in reserve, we get roughly 1400 kWh per car. That means you need 7 of these trucks for the ten cars per WRC event.

    Let's add for example 150 km stage length for PET and shakedown and you get to 9 of these charger trucks needed, i.e. nearly one per each car.

    Is that feasible to have? I don't know to be honest.
    Last edited by Mirek; 4th November 2020 at 15:36.
    Stupid is as stupid does. Forrest Gump

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  10. #948
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    Quote Originally Posted by Mirek View Post
    Some math for an overall perception of the problem. Please don't kill me for using very rough estimates. If there are better numbers, I will happily adjust the results.

    If we have 10 WRC cars doing 350 km of stages at average power consumption 150 kW (no idea how it would be in reality) and 1000 km of liaison at average 30 kW, doing some 100 km/h average on stage and 50 km/h average on liaison, and if we consider to have 20% unused battery in reserve, we get roughly 1400 kWh per car. That means you need 7 of these trucks for the ten cars per WRC event.

    Let's add for example 150 km stage legth for PET and shakedown and you get to 9 of these charger trucks needed, i.e. nearly one per each car.

    Is that feasible to have? I don't know to be honest.
    Thank you for bringing the example, I do not know the exact numbers eithers so I think they are roughly OK. I would think the 150 kW is quite a safe bet, it should not be much more. For Porsche Taycan I found consumption numbers 100-130 kWh/100 km on track. An average Taycan has max power output of 400 kW (300-560 kW depending on model). Current WRC cars should be around 280 kW I think? What is the average power used in a stage of todays WRC car? An EV could also use regenerative braking to save energy used for accelerating so the average power can be expected to be a bit lower than that of the current cars.

    Regarding the number of trucks I think you forgot that they can be recharged. If they are not used they should be "refilled" which can be definitely during night breaks so you can divide the numbers by three at least. Usually WRC events are based in populated areas where plenty of electricity is available.

    I agree also that there are challenges but from an engineering point of view the new era of electric cars seems very interesting. Current combustion engines have not much room for improvement, they are already very nearly as good as they can get. Of course there is nothing wrong if people want to see proven things and things they are used to. I would personally be ok with the WRC rules staying as they are for the next 10 years for the sake of old fans joy, but I would love to see a new series with new technology as well, be it a side series if needed. With that Porsche battery truck example I also wanted to point out that for every problem there is a solution.

  11. #949
    Senior Member Mirek's Avatar
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    Stock EV power consumption is limited by battery thermal management (I dare to say of all on the market). They are not designed to give the maximum power output for longer than single minutes, therefore it's tricky to take the ratio between peak and average power consumption from them.

    Yes, the trucks can be recharged but the organizers need to secure enough power in the service park for that. To charge three trucks in 8 hours brake you need roughly 800 kW effective input (on top of all the usual WRC circus) which has to be secured by the organizers somehow (both in physical presence of such lines and paperwork). To be honest I have no idea how much problematic that would be for the organizers.

    Maybe PLuto has an idea what is the typical power consumption of Barum rally service park.
    Last edited by Mirek; 4th November 2020 at 16:13.
    Stupid is as stupid does. Forrest Gump

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  13. #950
    Senior Member cali's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Mirek View Post
    Some math for an overall perception of the problem. Please don't kill me for using very rough estimates. If there are better numbers, I will happily adjust the results.

    If we have 10 WRC cars doing 350 km of stages at average power consumption 150 kW (no idea how it would be in reality) and 1000 km of liaison at average 30 kW, doing some 100 km/h average on stage and 50 km/h average on liaison, and if we consider to have 20% unused battery in reserve, we get roughly 1400 kWh per car. That means you need 7 of these trucks for the ten cars per WRC event.

    Let's add for example 150 km stage length for PET and shakedown and you get to 9 of these charger trucks needed, i.e. nearly one per each car.

    Is that feasible to have? I don't know to be honest.
    Looks like a economically sustainable footprint

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