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Thread: WRC future

  1. #61
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    Guys, dont get stuck into technical or geographical details. Its not important if in this or that country 10% or 20% of cars will be EVs in 5 years and wether or not there are unsolvable problems in some country. My point was that globally ( not just in EU) MARKETING will be even more focused on EVs in just few years and this is what influences carmakers decisions. Right now also only relatively small % of cars are hybrids or EVs but still proportionally big part of ads is about these. Marketing is about top of the line models because they define image of brand.

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    But for how long...warming old houses with cheap EPS was also propagated and supported. Now its quite the opposite....

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    Quote Originally Posted by Tarmop View Post
    It`s just like 50s-60s cigarettes, doctors approved that smoking is good for you, in commercials.
    You just have to remember the poison is in the doze amount. That saying a single diesel car in the city center is negligible than a powerplant in the city center.
    Last edited by stefanvv; 19th November 2019 at 00:12.
    "With that car, your brain can actually never keep up"
    https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=_4IRMYuE1hI

  4. #64
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    The main problem with EV's is that nobody buys them unless, like in norway, the government seriously fucks the market up with taxes and subsidies.

    Manufacturers only build EV's and hybrids for PR reasons, and to comply with things like the stupid EU regulations. There is not much profit to be made with them since, as i said, nobody want them.

    Even with huge subsidies in many countries, for every new electric car that is sold, 35 ordinary cars are being sold. So it's not going to take a long time before ev's have a significant global market share, it's just not going to happen. At least not before all the oil and gas in the world is consumed.

  5. Likes: TypeR (19th November 2019)
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    Quote Originally Posted by denkimi View Post
    The main problem with EV's is that nobody buys them unless, like in norway, the government seriously fucks the market up with taxes and subsidies.

    Manufacturers only build EV's and hybrids for PR reasons, and to comply with things like the stupid EU regulations. There is not much profit to be made with them since, as i said, nobody want them.

    Even with huge subsidies in many countries, for every new electric car that is sold, 35 ordinary cars are being sold. So it's not going to take a long time before ev's have a significant global market share, it's just not going to happen. At least not before all the oil and gas in the world is consumed.
    There is grain of thruth there. BUT - governments are fucking up different goods markets all the time, companies adapt and use this. Many things that we today consider normal public services could be outsourced as paid servises from public sector (use of roads for example - there is no reason why all roads couldnt be privat toll-roads, but we are used to have governments fucking up that market). So, governements are pushing out ICs by supporting EVs. And manufacturers use this. Which means - their marketing strategies follow this. BTW, this is not just EU thing. Globally biggest EV market is China, they yearly sales of "new energy vehicles" (EVs biggest subgroup there) exceeded 1 million units mark last year. In US EV sales dramatically increased last year and are estimated to be close to 0,5 M this year. India is somewhat lagging behind, but has just announces their goal to reach 30% level in 10 years through also fucking up market.
    So - even though currently maybe small percentage of cars are electric, companies are adapting to market opportunities and currently it seems that opportunities lie in the direction where EVs share will continuously and rapidly increase. And thus this is where their long-term strategy is pointing, including marketing strategy

  7. #66
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    Quote Originally Posted by stefanvv View Post
    You just have to remember the poison is in the doze amount. That saying a single diesel car in the city center is negligible than a powerplant in the city center.
    I am not talking about agricultural equipment.

  8. #67
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    Quote Originally Posted by Indreq View Post
    There is grain of thruth there. BUT - governments are fucking up different goods markets all the time, companies adapt and use this. Many things that we today consider normal public services could be outsourced as paid servises from public sector (use of roads for example - there is no reason why all roads couldnt be privat toll-roads, but we are used to have governments fucking up that market). So, governements are pushing out ICs by supporting EVs. And manufacturers use this. Which means - their marketing strategies follow this. BTW, this is not just EU thing. Globally biggest EV market is China, they yearly sales of "new energy vehicles" (EVs biggest subgroup there) exceeded 1 million units mark last year. In US EV sales dramatically increased last year and are estimated to be close to 0,5 M this year. India is somewhat lagging behind, but has just announces their goal to reach 30% level in 10 years through also fucking up market.
    So - even though currently maybe small percentage of cars are electric, companies are adapting to market opportunities and currently it seems that opportunities lie in the direction where EVs share will continuously and rapidly increase. And thus this is where their long-term strategy is pointing, including marketing strategy
    https://amp.businessinsider.com/glob...history-2019-9
    https://www.cnn.com/2019/11/12/busin...ies/index.html

    China has slashed its subsidies and the market has plummeted.
    It everywhere the same. As long as the price difference is payed with someone elses tax money people buy electric cars. As soon as the real prices have to be payed they don't want them anymore.

    And roads are not private because they are on government ground.
    If you want to make a comparison, that would be like paying people to use a small slow roads, and taxing them if they use the faster highway.

  9. #68
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    Quote Originally Posted by denkimi View Post
    https://amp.businessinsider.com/glob...history-2019-9
    https://www.cnn.com/2019/11/12/busin...ies/index.html

    China has slashed its subsidies and the market has plummeted.
    It everywhere the same. As long as the price difference is payed with someone elses tax money people buy electric cars. As soon as the real prices have to be payed they don't want them anymore.

    And roads are not private because they are on government ground.
    If you want to make a comparison, that would be like paying people to use a small slow roads, and taxing them if they use the faster highway.
    Thanks, good articles, i havent read them yet. And these both confirm that in longer term EVs are still future, what is going in China is seen as short term "improving of stock" process.
    And yes, i agree that subsidies are big part of buying incentive, i have nevere denied it, what i am saying is that this is part of the market forces and car makers take advantage of that. I myself seriously consider some EV as family 2nd car, for urban use. I have test-driven several of them and they are really good. As new models are flooding in, i believe that in couple if years price difference is not more than 10-20% and this is what i can accept.

    About roads - this was just an example of governement possible intervention into free market. My point was that there is nothing new or surprising that governments interfere here or there to shape economy or peoples behaviour. Many taxes are designed to support or prevent this or that. One way to go is subsidies on EVs but same effect would be heavy taxes on ICVs. While today EVs are little part of whole fleet, subsidies are better tool because through that state can equalize prices of few against many. If they would slam ICVs with tax in same proportion that would equalize prices of ICs and EVs, that would seriously fuck up all economy as today most of transportation still relies on ICVs. As EV technology developes subsidies will decrease and then at one moment, when EV and ICV shares are equal or EVs have majority, then probably ICVs will be taxed to weed them out.

    We have seen same things in power generation - wind power boom started some 30 years ago and up until now it relied only on heavy subsidies. Only now is technology mature enough that subsidies are really small or missing at all in case of new installations. If governments hadnt fucked up this market with subsidies for 30 years, this wouldnt have happened and we would still all be burning coal for power. And yes i know that today renewable energy is only part of total energy output and we have huge balancing issues but market and technologies have evolved and matured over decades and will continue doing so. In another 20-30 years hopefully coal-burning power stations are rare exceptions.

  10. Likes: RS (19th November 2019)
  11. #69
    Senior Member Fast Eddie WRC's Avatar
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    Can we bring this back to WRC's future or at least motorsport EV's ?

    Extreme-E is starting testing in 2020 and will run events in 2021. Could this steal some of WRC's publicity in this area...

  12. Likes: Sulland (21st November 2019)
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    Quote Originally Posted by Fast Eddie WRC View Post
    Can we bring this back to WRC's future or at least motorsport EV's ?
    It always turns the same way. Instead of discussing how we could develop motorsport in a way that would support the car manufacturers' current and future interests, we as motorsport fans start telling what kind of cars manufacturers should build.

  14. Likes: pantealex (19th November 2019)

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