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Thread: WRC future

  1. #591
    Senior Member Fast Eddie WRC's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by AndyRAC View Post
    So, Toyota & Hyundai......and where are the others? Ford would come back 'officially' if they thought it was worth it.
    Maybe, but they have been getting WRC publicity on the cheap for years now. M-Sport may have decided to make a stand and said they wont commit to 2022 til Ford commit to them.
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    Quote Originally Posted by Fast Eddie WRC View Post
    As someone on a rally podcast said recently, the 2017-Cars have been 'massive short-term gain, for massive long-term pain'.

    They have cost a fortune, lost us a great rally team (Citroen), lost us any top level privateer entry, and only made us hardcore rally fans happy and not attracted many new ones.

    This being the case, we shouldn't be surprised that the new 2022 WRC Regs (decided by & for the WRC Promoter's benefit and 2 well-funded Asian manufacturer's) wont be good for the sport either.
    I don't think a reduction in cost per car would make much difference.
    If the series meant a manufacturer stood much chance of selling more cars, they would enter.
    Remember the old Safari... they had bloody helicopters flying service technicians in mid-stage!
    It's not about cost of cars or championship entry costs, it's about exposure and return on investment and for that, you need people tuning in.
    They haven't achieved that, not even in the current format with these beastie 2017 cars, so what's going to change if they make the cars cheaper and possibly get another manufacturer on board? Another name on a trophy, but for who to see? The same hardcore fans that tune in at the moment.
    The format is stale.
    Rallying as a sport is about endurance and speed.
    What we have now is just a few super fast cars, sprinting along a few predictable stages, usually with the winner clearly visable by mid-Friday morning....
    Changing back to a more endurance based sport, which people can dip in and out of over a weekend, might sound ridiculous, but it might be what must happen. They've gone down this path of everything starting at the same time and finishing at the same time every weekend it's on, but this format simply hasn't achieved the standard it needs to for the FIA world rally championship series, in terms of exposure.
    Let's face it, how many of you are confident the sport has a bright future as things are? (even taking the dreaded Covid out of the equation).

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  4. #593
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    Quote Originally Posted by Fast Eddie WRC View Post
    As someone on a rally podcast said recently, the 2017-Cars have been 'massive short-term gain, for massive long-term pain'.

    They have cost a fortune, lost us a great rally team (Citroen), lost us any top level privateer entry, and only made us hardcore rally fans happy and not attracted many new ones.
    Under what circumstances would Citroen have continued to hang around, other than perhaps with continued domination at a low price, which couldn't be achieved once other teams turned up and they didn't have the best driver anymore? No manufacturer stays forever and they bid a long goodbye.

    The new cars have attracted new fans and brought back old ones, they aren't the problem and probably would have been funded by all but one manufacturer for a five year run. But their impact has been limited by the same issues that have dogged the WRC for 15 years, lack of exposure and uninspiring event formats. All Live is great, but casual fans will never see it. In most countries WRC Promoter haven't got the highlights show any better broadcast deals than North One did with a worse 'product'. I think privateer entries as a draw for fans is being rather overstated.

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    Senior Member AnttiL's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by T16 View Post
    What we have now is just a few super fast cars, sprinting along a few predictable stages, usually with the winner clearly visable by mid-Friday morning....
    This can only come from a person who doesn't follow the sport enough even to know if Monte is run over multiple regions.
    Changing back to a more endurance based sport, which people can dip in and out of over a weekend, might sound ridiculous, but it might be what must happen. They've gone down this path of everything starting at the same time and finishing at the same time every weekend it's on, but this format simply hasn't achieved the standard it needs to for the FIA world rally championship series, in terms of exposure.
    Have you heard of this product called All Live? Rallying has become increasingly popular during the latest few years. People are suggesting rallies would be shortened, not lengthened. Who would benefit from longer rallies, other than old farts who crave for nostalgy of the yesteryear? Also remember that the current race engines (and probably other parts as well) need a rebuild after 500 km of stages.

    Let's face it, how many of you are confident the sport has a bright future as things are? (even taking the dreaded Covid out of the equation).
    Well of course motorsport is a thing of the past, there's just no denying it. Things won't return to how it was in the 00's, 90's, 80's or 70's.

    The late great Martin Holmes said already in 2002 "The minute that rallying stops changing, it will no longer adapt itself to the changing face of life on earth, and that means the sport will be doomed".

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    Quote Originally Posted by AnttiL View Post
    This can only come from a person who doesn't follow the sport enough even to know if Monte is run over multiple regions.


    Have you heard of this product called All Live? Rallying has become increasingly popular during the latest few years. People are suggesting rallies would be shortened, not lengthened. Who would benefit from longer rallies, other than old farts who crave for nostalgy of the yesteryear? Also remember that the current race engines (and probably other parts as well) need a rebuild after 500 km of stages.


    Well of course motorsport is a thing of the past, there's just no denying it. Things won't return to how it was in the 00's, 90's, 80's or 70's.

    The late great Martin Holmes said already in 2002 "The minute that rallying stops changing, it will no longer adapt itself to the changing face of life on earth, and that means the sport will be doomed".


    It's really stuck with you that I asked if the Monte was ran over more then one region. I wasn't sure, I asked, because I suspected it was and you immediately thought I was asking as a snipe at your original post (whatever that was). I didn't know, but you think that has to correlate with my opinion on the level of predictability in today's events? Get a grip and be honest with yourself.... it IS predictable.


    "Have I heard of all live?" Yes.

    "Rallying has become more popular over the last few years" Well, that's even more worrying then isn't it, that Citroen left, Ford don't seem to want anything to do with it and we have the only two manufacturers a little over a month away from a deadline for new regs, who still haven't committed yet, but yes AnttiL, rallying is more popular!

    "remember the current engines need a rebuild" are you so hemmed into what we have now that it's beyond the possibility of your imagination that a rules change will allow for a more reliable engine, should event distance increase? Think about it, it's not hard.... change the regs.

    I'm not saying that longer rallies will work, but for me, that's one of the main attractions of the sport, one of it's foundations and they've taken it away, thinking this new bite sized format will work and it just isn't. Oh, sorry, I forgot, it's more popular than ever!

    If Martin Holmes was correct in his prediction, then why do you assume change must mean not changing back to something that once worked? again, short sighted. Just because it's not been done for a while, doesn't mean it wouldn't work.

    "who would benefit from longer rallies - old farts" Maybe a massive group of people who currently don't watch, who would prefer a different format. Are you able to consider that a new format will attract new fans?

    Of course I am not saying what I think may work and what I would like to see IS definitely the answer, but you seriously need to take the rose tinted glasses off and see that it is in a proper shit state right now, or you'll be making your maps for empty entry lists and no spectators.
    Last edited by T16; 5th July 2020 at 09:15.

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  10. #596
    Senior Member Fast Eddie WRC's Avatar
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    M-Sport taking a stand or they cant/wont commit to 2022...

    https://dirtfish.com/rally/wrc/m-spo...022-wrc-entry/

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    Senior Member Rally Power's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by T16 View Post
    My thoughts exactly. Iím astonished and a bit pissed iff with their Ďeverythingís good hereí attitude. Compare to F1 or the DTM, where thereís transparency between organisers / teams / fans with regard to the problems in those series.
    Arrogance beyond belief.
    We may or not agree with the new rules but from what is publicly known the FIA canít be blamed for arrogance on making them; besides Matton, all manus principals and the promoter revealed theyíre working on a permanent dialogue and compromise. The formal pre-engagement is a normal procedure and regarding all the positive feedback from the manus in the recent months itís surprising to see one of them rejecting it.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Fast Eddie WRC View Post
    M-Sport taking a stand or they cant/wont commit to 2022...

    https://dirtfish.com/rally/wrc/m-spo...022-wrc-entry/
    Thatís an unrealistic demand; thereís no way the FIA can impose Rally1 cars in national series and in regional FIA competitions WRC cars werenít allowed long before 2017. Besides, with the hybrid system and safety cell costs, Rally1 cars will barely be less expensive than current WRCís; apart a privateer class in the WRC, with manus support, probably thereís little way to spread Rally1 cars use.
    Rally addict since 1982

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    Senior Member Rally Power's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by T16 View Post
    Of course I am not saying what I think may work and what I would like to see IS definitely the answer, but you seriously need to take the rose tinted glasses off and see that it is in a proper shit state right now, or you'll be making your maps for empty entry lists and no spectators.
    After 3 of the most exciting WRC seasons ever, with close fights for the win and many events decided on the last day or even on the last stage, I would say that Antiiís rosed tinted glasses are more realistic than the very dark ones youíre using to portrait WRC state.

    Thereís no doubt that until Covidís pandemic WRC spectatorís numbers were increasing, both locally and globally, mostly thanks to the wow factor of post-17 cars and WRC+ broadcast. The reason why that increasing popularity didnít materialize on a larger number of manus is quite simple: overall running costs went through the roof and they do matter in motorsport.

    Even in pre-Covid days the automotive industry was facing wildely expensive challenges with EVís mandatory rules and a race for driving automation systems making cost cutting imperative in other areas, like motorsport. That way, each rally/racing series is forced to compete for a slice of an increasingly smaller pie, with overall running costs control becoming crucial for manus investement.

    WEC/Le Mans example is paradigmatic: Toyota was the only manu left in the expensive high tech hybrid era, forcing the FIA and the ACO to come with less expensive hybrid systems rules, still not enough to convince manus to invest (apart Peugeot). Now, with IMSAís help, theyíre proposing a new cost effective category, based on common spec hybrid systems and lower class chassis, making Porsche, Audi and many others to consider an LM return.

    In that sense and facing Covidís inevitable impact, itís not hard to think, unlikely the FIA and the 3 manus are doing, that the new rules may be in a dangerous countercycle and a Super R5 Hybrid solution would be a much wiser option for WRC future.
    Rally addict since 1982

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  14. #599
    Senior Member Fast Eddie WRC's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Rally Power View Post

    That’s an unrealistic demand; there’s no way the FIA can impose Rally1 cars in national series and in regional FIA competitions WRC cars weren’t allowed long before 2017. Besides, with the hybrid system and safety cell costs, Rally1 cars will barely be less expensive than current WRC’s; apart a privateer class in the WRC, with manus support, probably there’s little way to spread Rally1 cars use.
    Did you read what M.Wilson said - in 2017 WRCar sales fell off a cliff and they cant sustain a business just making them for Ford to enter as a psuedo-factory team.

    No new manu's are coming in, so do we let M-Sport leave as well ? If so that's a bad indictment on the future of the sport at the top level.

    M-Sport accepted the new rules and the plan for hybrid cars, but didnt say anything about agreeing where and by who they could be used. Forcing them into another 4 years of no private WRC sales is just not on. Something has to give...
    Last edited by Fast Eddie WRC; 5th July 2020 at 16:09.
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  15. #600
    Senior Member AnttiL's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by T16 View Post
    my opinion on the level of predictability in today's events? Get a grip and be honest with yourself.... it IS predictable.
    There's been so many last stage lead position changes during 2019 alone. There might have been rallies where Tšnak was leading from the first day to the end but even then you still had to be on the edge of your seat to see if the car would last to the finish. And it probably was more predictable before 2017 when it was just Ogier or Loeb dominating rallies from the beginning to the end. Not to mention the dominating eras of Audi and Lancia.

    You guys are now mixing up the car formats and event formats. So the cars need to be made cheaper...but the events more expensive? The only way I could see that the events would be made longer is to reduce the number of them. I proposed this on my blog and asked some people who actually organize rallies and they gave a big no. https://itgetsfasternow.com/2020/06/...in-three-days/

    "who would benefit from longer rallies - old farts" Maybe a massive group of people who currently don't watch, who would prefer a different format. Are you able to consider that a new format will attract new fans?
    This is as much of a guess as proposing that rallies could gain more audience if they were run on only stadium stages and decided in one day, because hey, F1 is still more popular!. I want some data to back your opinion. And saying "it was better in the 80's" doesn't cut it, the world has changed.

    I still want to hear what is the benefit of increasing the endurance element? We have Rally Raids which have that element, how popular are they?

    Remember bevore COVID-19 there was this thing called Global Warming and many car manufacturers seemed to be in dire straits? There simply is less money to spend in motorsport and that's why there's no more teams competing.

    Going to hybrids is a step onto the correct path, we need to have rallying have some way to market their greener models, which is what they sell now, even though the cars aren't going to be less ecological with the 2022 rules. But for car manufacturers, it's a big thing.
    Last edited by AnttiL; 5th July 2020 at 16:33.

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