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Thread: WRC future

  1. #751
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    Quote Originally Posted by Fast Eddie WRC View Post
    2022 is for the full-hybrid Rally1 cars, 2023 for the mild-hybrid Rally2.
    This says otherwise: https://www.autosport.com/wrc/news/1...for-wrc-rally1

  2. #752
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    Quote Originally Posted by Fast Eddie WRC View Post
    I can only see fully-electric cars as a 'proper' future for the sport long-term. And they will turn off as many old fans as they gain new ones.
    Full electrics would definitely kill the championship and instead of having 1 manu leave, we would have 3.

    The WRC will entertain the green marketing needs with hybrids until another alternative,
    capable of a familiar spectacle, comes along. That is just the reality of the situation.

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    Leaving aside the fact that I don't like ,,going full electric'' at all, I see a bigger problem with safety..
    Rallying goes thru hundreds of km's of forests not on circuits( Formula-E, RX etc), where the help can get there in seconds vs in the middle of nowhere..

    Lappi's car burnt to ground at the end of the stage, next to marshals.. imagine if you add some huge batteries there..

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    Quote Originally Posted by Mirek View Post
    IMHO FIA shall ASAP start to addapt the rules to be friendliest possible for the privateers because those will most likely stay while the future with the manufacturers it's at least uncertain.
    What would you propose? Current WRCars are clearly too expensive for privateers but you don’t seem keen on Rally2 being the top tier.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Mirek View Post
    Guys, as we discussed already in the past. It's unfortunately a fact that the society is changing and that the marketing value of motorsport will reasonably decrease in the future due to the very simple fact that promoting green energies via motorsport simply can not work becuase of the very principle that ecology and motorsport are oxymorons. Most of the petrolheads who create largest part of the motorsport audience refuse green energies, especially electricity and the people who buy electric cars largely ignore or outright refuse motorsport as a whole.

    I would not put that much weight to the public talk, be it from manufacturers or FIA because in my opinion behind the curtain there are serious discussions of the carmaker managing boards how to replace the motorsport in their future marketing activities. In that case they can use whatever excuse comes to their hand to quit at any time. Not saying that FIA is not part of the problem, of course.

    IMHO FIA shall ASAP start to addapt the rules to be friendliest possible for the privateers because those will most likely stay while the future with the manufacturers it's at least uncertain.
    You are looking through the glasses of a rich westerner.

    There are still billions of people in asia and afrika hoping to be able to buy a car. They are the fastest growing markets in the world.
    They just want to replace their ox cart or moped, they don't care about ecology or global warming.

    80 million cars are sold annually, and only 2 million of those are electric. That leaves a market share of 97,5% tot cars on fossil fuel.

    Don't let european green propaganda cloud your vision. When government doesn't push electric cars, nobody buys them.

    The petrol car is here to stay for at least a few more decades.

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    Senior Member AnttiL's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Mirek View Post
    That's not true. It's only a question of rules. Countless rallycars around the world were built without manufacturer involvement.
    But isn't that also a bit "historic" way of doing it? I mean, theoretically you could build new rally cars in your shop up to the existing homologation details, but who's going to develop the new parts and models if not the manufacturers?

    In addition, the whole series is run on manufacturer money. The development, building and rebuilding of cars, the salaries of the drivers and all the other personnel, shipping the circus around the world. Making the cars less expensive is only a small part of that money.

    It's difficult to see many privateers committing to a whole WRC season competitively, even if it was Rally2 cars...I mean, we don't see it currently in WRC2 and WRC3 anyway. It would also be hard to imagine seeing Sebastien Ogier or Ott Tänak pay for their drives instead of being paid.

    In the days of tobacco and alcohol sponsoring we could probably still have privateer teams with no manufacturer support, but not today anymore...maybe one driver could get the support of Red Bull, but that's it really.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Mirek View Post
    Rally2 cars are for privatters. They must be as affordable as possible. Hybridization will only make them much harder to operate for the privateers and more expensive. IMHO everybody involved knows that it's nonsense but FIA needs to do something for political reasons.
    Very interesting discussion and many different opinions ...but one thing is for sure : WRC1 is already way too expensive - WRC1-hybrid will only cost more. Matton telling everyone that the cost will be brought down by other means (standard parts) is just smoking grass. Like it or not, on the short term (>2022, let's assume that 2021 is just rolling as it is today), I see no other option than Rallye2+, or even Rally2 - period. Sticking with Rally1's expensive machinery is recipy for disaster (Only one manufacturer left = Toyota. Are we currently having fun in WEC with only the Toyotas ? I guess not ...)

    There was one interesting comment above about the championship then being tailored for privateers, not factory teams. What would the problem be, apart from FIA not being able to cash-in the large entry fees that manufacturers have to pay ? Would the battle for top positions be less interesting if it would be Toksport vs PH sport (vs. M-sport you could argue as well) if it were still the likes of Tanak, Ogier, Neuville and co. driving ?

    I like the idea of factory teams, but semi-official teams may not be that different. You would not get the service park hopsitalities and plethora of engineers watching their screens, trying to pretend that this is F1, but who cares ? I am an old fellow now and my most vivid memories of rallying was mechanics servicing the cars by the roadside. This is certainely long gone, but a small(er) size service park would not do any harm..

    With Rally2 (+ or not), you could see immediately Ford, Citroen and Hyundai competing directly or through some private entity/ national dealership /Satellite teams. Toyota would have no issue building a Rally2 car, they seem to have boatloads of cash ... And the barrier to entry for a newcomer would be acceptable, both money-wise and time-wise (these WRC1 seem to need a lot of development to be competitive ...)

    The cheaper / more standard the category would be, the more competition between multiple drivers. Privateers could compete on equal footing with (well) paid professionals - as it always was back in the days. And guess what : The same professional drivers and well organized teams would (almost) always win - because they are the best. How many times back in the 70's did a Bjorn Waldegard or a Hannu Mikkola get beaten by another Escort ? Never. But how many times did we get "second" tier driver have "their" day and challenge for the win, getting a podium here and there ? Often.

    I shall stop here because this is really making me upset. There must be something I am missing since the solution is so obvious. Can it be that FIA (Matton) is to proud to admit he was wrong to change his mind (and this is not his fault, the world has changed dramatically in the past 12 months) ? Can it be that there are some $$$ involved that I am are not aware of, that WRC is just a cash cow for those in power who want to travel in style around the globe and live the F1 "jet set" life (which WRC cannot afford) ? Can it be that some key players are playing it solo for their own interest (read Makinen who is the ony one with no money issues and wants to remain atop with only sparring partners such as MSport) ?

    My god, how come the sport i love so much since the days Rallye Monte Carlo drove (almost) in front of my house , showcasing Alpine's and Lancia's, has become such a mess ? (And btw, was I less excited by competitor #134 driving an 80hp NSU 1000TT, Datsun 120Y or Simca Rallye 2 (WRC historians, don't search for the year, the number and cars were total random pick !!) ? As long as the driver was at the limit, the joy was there - and will remain !)

    The years of citroen vs. Ford were already a low, I don't want to suffer the years of Toyota alone (even against a cash-strapped MSport - playing the role of Rebellion in the WEC). Get us the Rally2 as the top category and let the system find its new equilibrium. Everything better than watching the series die...

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    Senior Member AnttiL's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by djip View Post

    With Rally2 (+ or not), you could see immediately Ford, Citroen and Hyundai competing directly or through some private entity/ national dealership /Satellite teams. Toyota would have no issue building a Rally2 car
    Remember that Citroen does not have a factory team at the moment. It would be a different effort to run the whole season with three drivers than to do some development and run Østberg's car on a handful of WRC2 events.

    Just because some manufacturer has a car does not mean they would join in as a manufacturer team. Remember VW with the Polo R5? Even Skoda ended their works team for this year.

    Quote Originally Posted by djip View Post

    I like the idea of factory teams, but semi-official teams may not be that different. You would not get the service park hopsitalities and plethora of engineers watching their screens, trying to pretend that this is F1, but who cares ? I am an old fellow now and my most vivid memories of rallying was mechanics servicing the cars by the roadside. This is certainely long gone, but a small(er) size service park would not do any harm..
    Most likely the mobile servicing was also expensive with a lot of staff and vehicles and a big planning to do before the event. But I agree that we could do with smaller service park buildings.

    Quote Originally Posted by djip View Post
    The cheaper / more standard the category would be, the more competition between multiple drivers. Privateers could compete on equal footing with (well) paid professionals - as it always was back in the days. And guess what : The same professional drivers and well organized teams would (almost) always win - because they are the best. How many times back in the 70's did a Bjorn Waldegard or a Hannu Mikkola get beaten by another Escort ? Never. But how many times did we get "second" tier driver have "their" day and challenge for the win, getting a podium here and there ? Often.
    I think you said it yourself. And we've seen the same happening in WRC2 in the past years when Skoda Motorsport was practically unbeatable with the amounts of testing they were able to do, find the perfect settings and give seat time to the drivers. Even with "equal" machinery, the factory drivers will always have an advance.
    Last edited by AnttiL; 19th October 2020 at 21:13.

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    Quote Originally Posted by denkimi View Post
    You are looking through the glasses of a rich westerner.

    There are still billions of people in asia and afrika hoping to be able to buy a car. They are the fastest growing markets in the world.
    They just want to replace their ox cart or moped, they don't care about ecology or global warming.

    80 million cars are sold annually, and only 2 million of those are electric. That leaves a market share of 97,5% tot cars on fossil fuel.

    Don't let european green propaganda cloud your vision. When government doesn't push electric cars, nobody buys them.

    The petrol car is here to stay for at least a few more decades.
    The problem is that for African market WRC is hardly relevant. IMHO It has an impact in Europe or South America but very little if any elsewhere. I believe that how much they sell in Asia or Africa has little to do with motorsport. The brands involved in WRC are spending fortune on electrification, hybrids, self-driving technologies and other stuff which is exactly for "those rich westerners". They need to sell that and to do so they need to promote it. The issue is that WRC is becoming less and less a place suitable for that. It really isn't about promoting cars for the poor, sorry to say it like that but an advertisement on football stadium works better there.

    Quote Originally Posted by AnttiL View Post
    But isn't that also a bit "historic" way of doing it? I mean, theoretically you could build new rally cars in your shop up to the existing homologation details, but who's going to develop the new parts and models if not the manufacturers?

    In addition, the whole series is run on manufacturer money. The development, building and rebuilding of cars, the salaries of the drivers and all the other personnel, shipping the circus around the world. Making the cars less expensive is only a small part of that money.

    It's difficult to see many privateers committing to a whole WRC season competitively, even if it was Rally2 cars...I mean, we don't see it currently in WRC2 and WRC3 anyway. It would also be hard to imagine seeing Sebastien Ogier or Ott Tänak pay for their drives instead of being paid.

    In the days of tobacco and alcohol sponsoring we could probably still have privateer teams with no manufacturer support, but not today anymore...maybe one driver could get the support of Red Bull, but that's it really.
    I shall have been more precise, I guess. I didn't mean the nearest future per se, rather a more distant one. I expect (and of course I may be wrong) that there will be less and less manufacturer involvement in the sport in the future. That doesn't mean the sport will end, it may instead turn a bit in a Dakar way. Hence why I think that the existing homologation system which, let's be honest, exists mainly to protect manufacturer exclusivity will become a major issue.

    I am well aware that few years back I was advocating steps to keep manufacturers involved at any cost. That still applies however from the long-term perspective I see that a point where this approach would have to be abandoned is getting closer.

    Quote Originally Posted by RS View Post
    What would you propose? Current WRCars are clearly too expensive for privateers but you don’t seem keen on Rally2 being the top tier.
    I am not pretending to know what to do though. It will be difficult to find the new course for sure but IMHO a spaceframe buggy is definitely a good idea to start with.
    Stupid is as stupid does. Forrest Gump

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  14. #760
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    Quote Originally Posted by Mirek View Post
    I am not pretending to know what to do though. It will be difficult to find the new course for sure but IMHO a spaceframe buggy is definitely a good idea to start with.
    It might make sense from an engineering point of view, but to me that is not rally. Being at least loosely based on real road cars is what makes/made rally unique.

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