Page 60 of 130 FirstFirst ... 1050585960616270110 ... LastLast
Results 591 to 600 of 1296

Thread: WRC future

  1. #591
    Senior Member
    Join Date
    Jan 2018
    Posts
    1,203
    Like
    528
    Liked 747 Times in 381 Posts
    Quote Originally Posted by AnttiL View Post
    This can only come from a person who doesn't follow the sport enough even to know if Monte is run over multiple regions.


    Have you heard of this product called All Live? Rallying has become increasingly popular during the latest few years. People are suggesting rallies would be shortened, not lengthened. Who would benefit from longer rallies, other than old farts who crave for nostalgy of the yesteryear? Also remember that the current race engines (and probably other parts as well) need a rebuild after 500 km of stages.


    Well of course motorsport is a thing of the past, there's just no denying it. Things won't return to how it was in the 00's, 90's, 80's or 70's.

    The late great Martin Holmes said already in 2002 "The minute that rallying stops changing, it will no longer adapt itself to the changing face of life on earth, and that means the sport will be doomed".


    It's really stuck with you that I asked if the Monte was ran over more then one region. I wasn't sure, I asked, because I suspected it was and you immediately thought I was asking as a snipe at your original post (whatever that was). I didn't know, but you think that has to correlate with my opinion on the level of predictability in today's events? Get a grip and be honest with yourself.... it IS predictable.


    "Have I heard of all live?" Yes.

    "Rallying has become more popular over the last few years" Well, that's even more worrying then isn't it, that Citroen left, Ford don't seem to want anything to do with it and we have the only two manufacturers a little over a month away from a deadline for new regs, who still haven't committed yet, but yes AnttiL, rallying is more popular!

    "remember the current engines need a rebuild" are you so hemmed into what we have now that it's beyond the possibility of your imagination that a rules change will allow for a more reliable engine, should event distance increase? Think about it, it's not hard.... change the regs.

    I'm not saying that longer rallies will work, but for me, that's one of the main attractions of the sport, one of it's foundations and they've taken it away, thinking this new bite sized format will work and it just isn't. Oh, sorry, I forgot, it's more popular than ever!

    If Martin Holmes was correct in his prediction, then why do you assume change must mean not changing back to something that once worked? again, short sighted. Just because it's not been done for a while, doesn't mean it wouldn't work.

    "who would benefit from longer rallies - old farts" Maybe a massive group of people who currently don't watch, who would prefer a different format. Are you able to consider that a new format will attract new fans?

    Of course I am not saying what I think may work and what I would like to see IS definitely the answer, but you seriously need to take the rose tinted glasses off and see that it is in a proper shit state right now, or you'll be making your maps for empty entry lists and no spectators.
    Last edited by T16; 5th July 2020 at 10:15.

  2. Likes: AndyRAC (5th July 2020),Fast Eddie WRC (5th July 2020),Tauri_J (5th July 2020)
  3. #592
    Senior Member Fast Eddie WRC's Avatar
    Join Date
    Mar 2010
    Location
    England
    Posts
    18,780
    Like
    3,417
    Liked 9,309 Times in 4,937 Posts
    M-Sport taking a stand or they cant/wont commit to 2022...

    https://dirtfish.com/rally/wrc/m-spo...022-wrc-entry/

  4. #593
    Senior Member Rally Power's Avatar
    Join Date
    Mar 2008
    Location
    Portugal
    Posts
    3,004
    Like
    3,729
    Liked 2,937 Times in 1,338 Posts
    Quote Originally Posted by T16 View Post
    My thoughts exactly. I’m astonished and a bit pissed iff with their ‘everything’s good here’ attitude. Compare to F1 or the DTM, where there’s transparency between organisers / teams / fans with regard to the problems in those series.
    Arrogance beyond belief.
    We may or not agree with the new rules but from what is publicly known the FIA can’t be blamed for arrogance on making them; besides Matton, all manus principals and the promoter revealed they’re working on a permanent dialogue and compromise. The formal pre-engagement is a normal procedure and regarding all the positive feedback from the manus in the recent months it’s surprising to see one of them rejecting it.

    https://dirtfish.com/motorsport/wrc-...has-ever-seen/
    https://dirtfish.com/rally/wrc-teams...-next-january/


    Quote Originally Posted by Fast Eddie WRC View Post
    M-Sport taking a stand or they cant/wont commit to 2022...

    https://dirtfish.com/rally/wrc/m-spo...022-wrc-entry/
    That’s an unrealistic demand; there’s no way the FIA can impose Rally1 cars in national series and in regional FIA competitions WRC cars weren’t allowed long before 2017. Besides, with the hybrid system and safety cell costs, Rally1 cars will barely be less expensive than current WRC’s; apart a privateer class in the WRC, with manus support, probably there’s little way to spread Rally1 cars use.
    Rally addict since 1982

  5. #594
    Senior Member Rally Power's Avatar
    Join Date
    Mar 2008
    Location
    Portugal
    Posts
    3,004
    Like
    3,729
    Liked 2,937 Times in 1,338 Posts
    Quote Originally Posted by T16 View Post
    Of course I am not saying what I think may work and what I would like to see IS definitely the answer, but you seriously need to take the rose tinted glasses off and see that it is in a proper shit state right now, or you'll be making your maps for empty entry lists and no spectators.
    After 3 of the most exciting WRC seasons ever, with close fights for the win and many events decided on the last day or even on the last stage, I would say that Antii’s rosed tinted glasses are more realistic than the very dark ones you’re using to portrait WRC state.

    There’s no doubt that until Covid’s pandemic WRC spectator’s numbers were increasing, both locally and globally, mostly thanks to the wow factor of post-17 cars and WRC+ broadcast. The reason why that increasing popularity didn’t materialize on a larger number of manus is quite simple: overall running costs went through the roof and they do matter in motorsport.

    Even in pre-Covid days the automotive industry was facing wildely expensive challenges with EV’s mandatory rules and a race for driving automation systems making cost cutting imperative in other areas, like motorsport. That way, each rally/racing series is forced to compete for a slice of an increasingly smaller pie, with overall running costs control becoming crucial for manus investement.

    WEC/Le Mans example is paradigmatic: Toyota was the only manu left in the expensive high tech hybrid era, forcing the FIA and the ACO to come with less expensive hybrid systems rules, still not enough to convince manus to invest (apart Peugeot). Now, with IMSA’s help, they’re proposing a new cost effective category, based on common spec hybrid systems and lower class chassis, making Porsche, Audi and many others to consider an LM return.

    In that sense and facing Covid’s inevitable impact, it’s not hard to think, unlikely the FIA and the 3 manus are doing, that the new rules may be in a dangerous countercycle and a Super R5 Hybrid solution would be a much wiser option for WRC future.
    Rally addict since 1982

  6. Likes: AnttiL (5th July 2020),EstWRC (5th July 2020),T16 (5th July 2020),the sniper (5th July 2020)
  7. #595
    Senior Member Fast Eddie WRC's Avatar
    Join Date
    Mar 2010
    Location
    England
    Posts
    18,780
    Like
    3,417
    Liked 9,309 Times in 4,937 Posts
    Quote Originally Posted by Rally Power View Post

    That’s an unrealistic demand; there’s no way the FIA can impose Rally1 cars in national series and in regional FIA competitions WRC cars weren’t allowed long before 2017. Besides, with the hybrid system and safety cell costs, Rally1 cars will barely be less expensive than current WRC’s; apart a privateer class in the WRC, with manus support, probably there’s little way to spread Rally1 cars use.
    Did you read what M.Wilson said - in 2017 WRCar sales fell off a cliff and they cant sustain a business just making them for Ford to enter as a psuedo-factory team.

    No new manu's are coming in, so do we let M-Sport leave as well ? If so that's a bad indictment on the future of the sport at the top level.

    M-Sport accepted the new rules and the plan for hybrid cars, but didnt say anything about agreeing where and by who they could be used. Forcing them into another 4 years of no private WRC sales is just not on. Something has to give...
    Last edited by Fast Eddie WRC; 5th July 2020 at 17:09.
    #M-SPORTER

  8. #596
    Senior Member AnttiL's Avatar
    Join Date
    Apr 2017
    Location
    Finland
    Posts
    9,625
    Like
    8,775
    Liked 10,522 Times in 4,616 Posts
    Quote Originally Posted by T16 View Post
    my opinion on the level of predictability in today's events? Get a grip and be honest with yourself.... it IS predictable.
    There's been so many last stage lead position changes during 2019 alone. There might have been rallies where Tänak was leading from the first day to the end but even then you still had to be on the edge of your seat to see if the car would last to the finish. And it probably was more predictable before 2017 when it was just Ogier or Loeb dominating rallies from the beginning to the end. Not to mention the dominating eras of Audi and Lancia.

    You guys are now mixing up the car formats and event formats. So the cars need to be made cheaper...but the events more expensive? The only way I could see that the events would be made longer is to reduce the number of them. I proposed this on my blog and asked some people who actually organize rallies and they gave a big no. https://itgetsfasternow.com/2020/06/...in-three-days/

    "who would benefit from longer rallies - old farts" Maybe a massive group of people who currently don't watch, who would prefer a different format. Are you able to consider that a new format will attract new fans?
    This is as much of a guess as proposing that rallies could gain more audience if they were run on only stadium stages and decided in one day, because hey, F1 is still more popular!. I want some data to back your opinion. And saying "it was better in the 80's" doesn't cut it, the world has changed.

    I still want to hear what is the benefit of increasing the endurance element? We have Rally Raids which have that element, how popular are they?

    Remember bevore COVID-19 there was this thing called Global Warming and many car manufacturers seemed to be in dire straits? There simply is less money to spend in motorsport and that's why there's no more teams competing.

    Going to hybrids is a step onto the correct path, we need to have rallying have some way to market their greener models, which is what they sell now, even though the cars aren't going to be less ecological with the 2022 rules. But for car manufacturers, it's a big thing.
    Last edited by AnttiL; 5th July 2020 at 17:33.

  9. #597
    Senior Member AnttiL's Avatar
    Join Date
    Apr 2017
    Location
    Finland
    Posts
    9,625
    Like
    8,775
    Liked 10,522 Times in 4,616 Posts
    Quote Originally Posted by Fast Eddie WRC View Post
    Did you read what M.Wilson said - in 2017 WRCar sales fell off a cliff and they cant sustain a business just making them for Ford to enter as a psuedo-factory team.
    Again we need to remember that this is Wilson talk, he is saying this in public to persuade Ford to give more money. He does the same at the end of every season.

  10. Likes: dimviii (5th July 2020),EstWRC (5th July 2020),pantealex (5th July 2020),Rally Hokkaido (6th July 2020),T16 (5th July 2020),the sniper (5th July 2020)
  11. #598
    Senior Member Rally Power's Avatar
    Join Date
    Mar 2008
    Location
    Portugal
    Posts
    3,004
    Like
    3,729
    Liked 2,937 Times in 1,338 Posts
    Quote Originally Posted by Fast Eddie WRC View Post
    Did you read what M.Wilson said - in 2017 WRCar sales fell off a cliff and they cant sustain a business just making them for Ford to enter as a psuedo-factory team.
    Take a good look on the eWRC site and you can see that WRC cars sales collapse started long before 2017; from 2014 onwards R5 cars become the main category in national and regional series and although WRC cars were still allowed, sometimes in the detuned RRC version, very few drivers managed to run them.

    No matter how vital selling top cars is to MSport, the FIA can’t simply impose Rally1 cars use in national (that’s up to ASN’s) or regional series when they’re expected to cost only slightly less than a current WRC car.

    It’s already hard to get a decent entry level in series like the ERC, the MERC or the APRC (and the BRC, btw) with R5 cars; with these Rally1 cars it’d be impossible. Unless Rally1 class becomes cheaper than projected, it simply can’t be a solution for national or regional rallying.
    Rally addict since 1982

  12. Likes: AnttiL (5th July 2020),cali (6th July 2020),pantealex (6th July 2020),Rally Hokkaido (6th July 2020),T16 (5th July 2020),the sniper (5th July 2020)
  13. #599
    Senior Member
    Join Date
    Jan 2018
    Posts
    1,203
    Like
    528
    Liked 747 Times in 381 Posts
    Quote Originally Posted by Rally Power View Post
    After 3 of the most exciting WRC seasons ever, with close fights for the win and many events decided on the last day or even on the last stage, I would say that Antii’s rosed tinted glasses are more realistic than the very dark ones you’re using to portrait WRC state.

    There’s no doubt that until Covid’s pandemic WRC spectator’s numbers were increasing, both locally and globally, mostly thanks to the wow factor of post-17 cars and WRC+ broadcast. The reason why that increasing popularity didn’t materialize on a larger number of manus is quite simple: overall running costs went through the roof and they do matter in motorsport.

    Even in pre-Covid days the automotive industry was facing wildely expensive challenges with EV’s mandatory rules and a race for driving automation systems making cost cutting imperative in other areas, like motorsport. That way, each rally/racing series is forced to compete for a slice of an increasingly smaller pie, with overall running costs control becoming crucial for manus investement.

    WEC/Le Mans example is paradigmatic: Toyota was the only manu left in the expensive high tech hybrid era, forcing the FIA and the ACO to come with less expensive hybrid systems rules, still not enough to convince manus to invest (apart Peugeot). Now, with IMSA’s help, they’re proposing a new cost effective category, based on common spec hybrid systems and lower class chassis, making Porsche, Audi and many others to consider an LM return.

    In that sense and facing Covid’s inevitable impact, it’s not hard to think, unlikely the FIA and the 3 manus are doing, that the new rules may be in a dangerous countercycle and a Super R5 Hybrid solution would be a much wiser option for WRC future.

    If AnttiL's glasses are a better perspective than my doom and gloom, then why have we got not one manufacturer signed up to the 2022 regs yet, and none more on the horizon?

    You say the reason more manufacturer's are not interested was because of the increasing costs? So you really believe that? The cost (within reason, of course) does not matter at all if the manufacturer gets perceived value from the marketing exercise that is rallying. I.E. if they can sell enough cars off the back of it, they'll get involved.

    I understand that the WRC is fighting for a smaller piece of pie than in the past and it's made increasingly hard because of the other series that are more 'current' in terms of EV / Hybrid, meaning the WRC is lagging but the current format just isn't selling itself to the manufacturers.

    Am I right in thinking that Toyota are there because of the chairman's love affair with the sport? hell, what happens when he's not interested anymore / not in that position?

    Maybe time to flip it on it's head a bit... Let's face it, fast hatch backs are becoming less and less popular because of the fact that people are increasingly likely to think of a fast driver as a dick, for several reasons (environmental and safety mainly.
    Their day is done, hence why the championship has acknowledged this and paved the way for more SUV based rally cars.
    So if this kind of vehicle is becoming the norm, then does a manufacturer stand to gain more benefit from advertising the car as something that can rip along a few roads, over couple of days, faster than its rival, or would it look better if it dominated it over a (still quick) event that celebrated more of a reliability victory?

    Again, just my opinion, as is the fact that the current state of affairs doesn't look good.

  14. #600
    Senior Member
    Join Date
    Jan 2018
    Posts
    1,203
    Like
    528
    Liked 747 Times in 381 Posts
    Quote Originally Posted by AnttiL View Post
    There's been so many last stage lead position changes during 2019 alone. There might have been rallies where Tänak was leading from the first day to the end but even then you still had to be on the edge of your seat to see if the car would last to the finish. And it probably was more predictable before 2017 when it was just Ogier or Loeb dominating rallies from the beginning to the end. Not to mention the dominating eras of Audi and Lancia.

    You guys are now mixing up the car formats and event formats. So the cars need to be made cheaper...but the events more expensive? The only way I could see that the events would be made longer is to reduce the number of them. I proposed this on my blog and asked some people who actually organize rallies and they gave a big no. https://itgetsfasternow.com/2020/06/...in-three-days/



    This is as much of a guess as proposing that rallies could gain more audience if they were run on only stadium stages and decided in one day, because hey, F1 is still more popular!. I want some data to back your opinion. And saying "it was better in the 80's" doesn't cut it, the world has changed.

    I still want to hear what is the benefit of increasing the endurance element? We have Rally Raids which have that element, how popular are they?

    Remember bevore COVID-19 there was this thing called Global Warming and many car manufacturers seemed to be in dire straits? There simply is less money to spend in motorsport and that's why there's no more teams competing.

    Going to hybrids is a step onto the correct path, we need to have rallying have some way to market their greener models, which is what they sell now, even though the cars aren't going to be less ecological with the 2022 rules. But for car manufacturers, it's a big thing.
    Car changes needed / event changes needed.

    I didn’t nail my flag to the mast and say I’m certain that longer events are the answer.... it’s just a thought.


    I’m saying what we have now isn’t.

Posting Permissions

  • You may not post new threads
  • You may not post replies
  • You may not post attachments
  • You may not edit your posts
  •