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Thread: WRC future

  1. #901
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    Quote Originally Posted by AnttiL View Post
    Rally1 will have a hybrid system, space frame construction, common safety cage and GRE engine. The body shell can be scaled down. These are the major conceptual differences to Rally2, which is modified from a production car.

    However, the cost and performance of a pumped-up Rally2 car could be close to a Rally1 car. Lots of unknowns.
    exactly. what's the point in evolving rally2 in something (current) rally1-ish?

    The point is get a better and cheaper rally1... (that was only for T16!)

  2. Likes: AnttiL (30th October 2020),pantealex (31st October 2020)
  3. #902
    Senior Member AnttiL's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Rally Power View Post
    Sorry mate, but you're missing the most important point: motorsport budgets are being slashed by the manus and each series must make overall costs more competitive and attractive.

    For sure some expenses (staff, logistics, consumable) will cost more or less the same no matter what car is used, but the development and running costs (way higher than drivers salaries) are directly linked to the tech level of the cars.

    High-tech Rally1 cars costing over €600k (their hybrid system alone was priced around 150k) will certainly make manus think twice when compared to Rally2 cars price (largely below 300k).
    I beg to disagree here, I would claim the difference between Rally1 and Rally2 cars doesn't make that much of a difference in a yearly budget of a WRC team. It's more dramatic for privateers.

    A tyre, a liter of gasoline, a night at a hotel, a flight, monthly salary of an employee, headquarters, service park buildings, a day of testing - everything costs the same, no matter if it's WRC or R1 car.

    Let's assume a season with Rally1 costs 100 money units for a manufacturer and the same season with Rally2 costs 75 money units. Do they invest the 75 in something they don't want/need to promote (ICE's, car models without hybrid), or 100 in something they do want to promote (hybrids, street models with hybrids)?
    Last edited by AnttiL; 30th October 2020 at 21:29.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Mirek View Post
    This... ...is how you do marketing for electric cars.
    https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=T09H-qkKiBI
    The two top Ford Mustang Mach E 1400 vids have 6.9 mil views in total:

    https://youtu.be/4-7jBLqSlzg

    What you posted is just an enlarged version of a road-side board and clearly doesn't have large ambitions. Even more funny that it's using pictures from motorsport to promote the car.

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    Senior Member Mirek's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by mknight View Post
    The two top Ford Mustang Mach E 1400 vids have 6.9 mil views in total:

    https://youtu.be/4-7jBLqSlzg

    What you posted is just an enlarged version of a road-side board and clearly doesn't have large ambitions. Even more funny that it's using pictures from motorsport to promote the car.
    That event was not about the youtube video but about the event in Abu Dhabi... Think about it please, far far majority of youtube views are from teenagers and schoolchildren who are in no way customers for Taycan. The people living in or visiting Abu Dhabi definitely are.
    Last edited by Mirek; 30th October 2020 at 22:14.
    Stupid is as stupid does. Forrest Gump

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    Senior Member Rally Power's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by AnttiL View Post
    I beg to disagree here, I would claim the difference between Rally1 and Rally2 cars doesn't make that much of a difference in a yearly budget of a WRC team. It's more dramatic for privateers.
    For sure it's harder for privateers but the €/km cost difference of the cars will always be there, no matter who's running them. You've to consider the price difference of a GREngine or that of a transmission, suspension or any simpler, yet improved, part of a WRC car, regardind R5's, and besides the production costs of the components there's also their wear and rebuild expenses. At every test or rally day all those price differences will be reflected on each car running costs, becoming huge at the end of a season. The same applies to development.
    Rally addict since 1982

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    Quote Originally Posted by wyler View Post
    exactly. what's the point in evolving rally2 in something (current) rally1-ish?
    I believe no one is asking to make Rally2 cars to be like Rally1 cars; Rally2 are already close to pre-2017 WRC's performance but they cost only half of what a 2016 WRC was costing at the time. They mostly need to improve their reliability, changing some parts that are too close to production; it wouldn't take a fortune to do it and Rally2+ could work as a sensible Rally2 upgrade, a bit like Rally4/Rally5 cases.
    Last edited by Rally Power; 30th October 2020 at 23:48.
    Rally addict since 1982

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  10. #907
    Senior Member AnttiL's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Rally Power View Post
    For sure it's harder for privateers but the €/km cost difference of the cars will always be there, no matter who's running them. You've to consider the price difference of a GREngine or that of a transmission, suspension or any simpler, yet improved, part of a WRC car, regardind R5's, and besides the production costs of the components there's also their wear and rebuild expenses. At every test or rally day all those price differences will be reflected on each car running costs, becoming huge at the end of a season. The same applies to development.
    But at the same time some of the components will last longer, like the GRE engine. It was estimated that the cost of using Rally2 engines would be equal to using five times more expensive GRE engines, because you would need five times more of Rally2 engines during a season.

    I know that using Rally2 cars would be somewhat cheaper, you don't need to tell me that. I'm just not convinced that manufacturers are interested in putting down that money to promote something that's not in their marketing preference.

    I might be wrong though. We will never be able to say which one is better because we cannot have both classes be the main class at the same time. If one fails, we can always say that the other would have succeeded.

  11. #908
    Senior Member AnttiL's Avatar
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    Thinking further, I think M-Sport would be the company that would benefit the most from going to Rally2 as the main class. They operate on a smaller budget than other teams and they would get direct promotion for the rally cars they sell the most and they are not relying on manufacturer funding or promotion plans.
    Last edited by AnttiL; 31st October 2020 at 07:45.

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  13. #909
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    Quote Originally Posted by wyler View Post
    exactly. what's the point in evolving rally2 in something (current) rally1-ish?

    The point is get a better and cheaper rally1... (that was only for T16!)
    Ha Ha - Still waiting

  14. #910
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    Quote Originally Posted by Rally Power View Post
    I believe no one is asking to make Rally2 cars to be like Rally1 cars; Rally2 are already close to pre-2017 WRC's performance but they cost only half of what a 2016 WRC was costing at the time. They mostly need to improve their reliability, changing some parts that are too close to production; it wouldn't take a fortune to do it and Rally2+ could work as a sensible Rally2 upgrade, a bit like Rally4/Rally5 cases.
    not a matter of asking for it. it is way simpler. i ll try to say that again: if u upgrade a rally2, it will become some sort of rally1 type car. that's all. my point is: work on a real rally1 development, not a mild copy that you call rally2+. i understand that is made on budget premises, but manus already told it will make no difference.
    by the way, manus will invest same amount of money as rally1 in development and extras that will not really share with customers. privateers will remain a second tier completely as for '16 wrc.

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