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Thread: WRC future

  1. #761
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    Quote Originally Posted by AnttiL View Post

    I think you said it yourself. And we've seen the same happening in WRC2 in the past years when Skoda Motorsport was practically unbeatable with the amounts of testing they were able to do, find the perfect settings and give seat time to the drivers. Even with "equal" machinery, the factory drivers will always have an advance.
    Yes but the difference would not be 15+ minutes at rally end. And most important : If you make a mistake and lose a few minutes, you end up down the order, not a guaranteed top 6. As I said, top teams and top drivers would always be at the forefront, but other could mix it up here and there. What we have today is 8 Rally1 starters = top 8 positions (unless you retire), even if you are a midfield driver with cash (Greensmith, Loubet, ...) - which is pretty boring.

    The quintessence of rallying is (i) using everyday's roads (ii) everyone, from the top professional to the true amateur, competing on "equal" footing, e.g. doing the same events, same stages etc .. Rallying history is full of surprizing performances, privately entered) cars (see, from the top of my head, Alen, RAC 73, Airrikkala RAC 75, "Tony" San Remo 79)

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  3. #762
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    [QUOTE=Mirek;1253943] The brands involved in WRC are spending fortune on electrification, hybrids, self-driving technologies and other stuff which is exactly for "those rich westerners". They need to sell that and to do so they need to promote it. The issue is that WRC is becoming less and less a place suitable for that.

    As a side comment : Why on earth hasn't FIA thought about promoting hybrid for rallying with the following script : Run the liaison on electrics (green), and the stage on petrol (performance and "show"). If your battery/energy managerment is not good enough for the liaison, you have to spend some "refilling" energy (=performance) on stage from the ICE to ensure you can make it back to service. I understand this would be hard to implement to begin with, but at least there is a clear message there ...Adding whatever "electric" horsepowers to the ICE on stage does not bring any audible message ...

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    Senior Member Mirek's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by djip View Post
    As a side comment : Why on earth hasn't FIA thought about promoting hybrid for rallying with the following script : Run the liaison on electrics (green), and the stage on petrol (performance and "show"). If your battery/energy managerment is not good enough for the liaison, you have to spend some "refilling" energy (=performance) on stage from the ICE to ensure you can make it back to service. I understand this would be hard to implement to begin with, but at least there is a clear message there ...Adding whatever "electric" horsepowers to the ICE on stage does not bring any audible message ...
    Running liaisons on electricity was an idea promoted at certain point by FIA but naturally it was rejected because carrying a few hundred kilos of ballast in a competition car which is completely useless on stage makes no sense whatsoever.
    Stupid is as stupid does. Forrest Gump

  5. #764
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    I was against it previously, but I have to say that the more time goes on I am starting to think that a Rally-2 (or some variation of) based car is the way forward for the WRC.
    Motorsport globally is generally moving to more economical rule sets, and rallying is going the other way (despite what Matton is arguing). Even F1 with all the with all its global reach has realised it needs to get hold of budgets, WEC, DTM, all too expensive to continue to exist as they were.
    Rally does have a head start in that lots of Rally-2 cars already exist from multiple brands so it can react quite quickly, and the possibility of very healthy entry lists is surely a formality.
    Skoda, Citroen, Ford, Hyundai, VW and hopefully Toyota could all enter factory, or factory supported private teams (Red Bull BRR VW?) almost straight away, plus any genuine good privateers. Already sounds good to me.

  6. Likes: macebig (20th October 2020),RS (20th October 2020),skarderud (21st October 2020)
  7. #765
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    Quote Originally Posted by Mirek View Post
    Running liaisons on electricity was an idea promoted at certain point by FIA but naturally it was rejected because carrying a few hundred kilos of ballast in a competition car which is completely useless on stage makes no sense whatsoever.
    Why do you say the extra parts (weight) don't make sense ? We tend to forget the essence rallying : Laison (=going from one place to the next) is also part of the rally - even if today it is totally uneventful. Otherwise, this is world RX ...

  8. #766
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    It is a still a technology issue that electric have different performance to the petrol/ liquid fuel cars.


    If I remember correctly the EV for WRC was just to go through mountain villages etc rather than having a full noise turbo rattling through the ville.
    Paddon is looking to swap batteries between stages with the Kona EV, till technology improves.

    A tesla battery has near 5 times the energy density of the prius lithium battery.(80kg)

    Liasion can still be eventful, a competitor did a nz event a few months back with the clutch stuck to the flywheel, relying on smashing through no clutch dogbox gear changes to complete the event.

    Fast charging is improving all the time. the estonian Ultra capacitors are looking at recharging times faster than town petrol station refills.
    Atlis lithium battery 2020 - 500 miles for USA pickup truck charge in 9 and half minutes. new battery configuration.
    https://youtu.be/gkPg5XYf8jg?t=55

    2014 Are these still operating in Bratislava? - van battery swap of 600 kg packs.
    https://youtu.be/SXXbFqhlQs8
    Last edited by Humber; 20th October 2020 at 04:11.

  9. #767
    Senior Member AnttiL's Avatar
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    If you think about a car manufacturer boss, you can't expect them to be rally nuts or interested in rally (just because Akio Toyoda is). For them it could be a case of "give me a list of all the motorsports we are sponsoring and which power source they are using" - and crossing out everything which doesn't say "hybrid" or "electric".

    Would Rally2 hybrid then be the right choice? Do the manufacturers have hybrid versions of the current Rally2 cars? I think there is soon a Ford Fiesta light hybrid, but I couldn't find any information about a hybrid Skoda Fabia, Citroen C3 or Hyundai i20, likely not at least with the current body types.

    Remember how the 2022 Rally1 rules allow you to scale down the body? That's how the car manufacturers can market the bigger models which more typically have a hybrid system in the road car versions. It would be slightly more expensive than Rally2 hybrids, but it would give more marketing value for the manufacturers.

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    Senior Member AnttiL's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by djip View Post
    What we have today is 8 Rally1 starters = top 8 positions (unless you retire), even if you are a midfield driver with cash (Greensmith, Loubet, ...) - which is pretty boring.
    Not really, we've had 8 proper factory entries in every rally, and then the Greensmiths et al on top of that. Every rally has had more than 8 WRC cars on the start line!

    Quote Originally Posted by djip View Post
    Yes but the difference would not be 15+ minutes at rally end.
    Well, the rallies are also shorter, we should look at s/km instead. I'm picking up random rallies, like Monte 1975, the best privateer finished 3.3 s/km behind the winner. Or Finland 1976, best privateer was 2.66 s/km behind the winner.

    Then we look at Monte 2020 and see that Eric Camilli with an R5 finished 2.7 s/km behind the winner. Finland 2019, Kalle Rovanperä with R5 was 1.5 s/km behind the winner!

    The quintessence of rallying is (i) using everyday's roads (ii) everyone, from the top professional to the true amateur, competing on "equal" footing, e.g. doing the same events, same stages etc .. Rallying history is full of surprizing performances, privately entered) cars (see, from the top of my head, Alen, RAC 73, Airrikkala RAC 75, "Tony" San Remo 79)
    You are using examples of the 70's. Rallying became a lot more professional in the 80's, mainly from the influence of Audi. After that it has been quite rare that a privateer succeeds in a rally, especially if it is a round for manufacturer points (this is why NZ and Ivory Coast rallies, for example, were sometimes won by privateers).

    Tony Fassina in 1979 was seeded #2 with a Lancia Stratos against Fiat 131's and Talbot Sunbeams, how surprising is that he won?
    Last edited by AnttiL; 20th October 2020 at 08:17.

  11. #769
    Senior Member AnttiL's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by doubled1978 View Post
    Skoda, Citroen, Ford, Hyundai, VW and hopefully Toyota could all enter factory, or factory supported private teams (Red Bull BRR VW?) almost straight away
    That is a big assumption, considering that Skoda, Citroen, Ford and VW do not have factory teams at the moment and Toyota doesn't have a Rally2 car ready. Citroen and Skoda just stopped their operations and VW even announced they're not interested in supporting combustion engine motorsports anymore.

  12. Likes: EstWRC (20th October 2020),pantealex (21st October 2020)
  13. #770
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    Quote Originally Posted by AnttiL View Post
    That is a big assumption, considering that Skoda, Citroen, Ford and VW do not have factory teams at the moment and Toyota doesn't have a Rally2 car ready. Citroen and Skoda just stopped their operations and VW even announced they're not interested in supporting combustion engine motorsports anymore.
    Yet all these manufacturer have semi-private, very professional teams entering (randomly i admit) the events with their cars. How would that be any different than fully-backed teams if driven properly ? And maybe importers could now afford to support a lone entry here and there to spice it up.

    All in all, I like the idea of more (supposidely) equal footing entry, instead of just having to pick from 9 drivers (3x3), always the same, at any given round. Remember the 90's ? The entry list was so full of A8 cars that you had to wait for entry #35 if not more for the first A7 .... and many of them were serious drivers that could compete, if not for the top spot, at least for the top 6.

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