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Thread: WRC future

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    Senior Member AnttiL's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Rally Power View Post
    The problem is that, apparently, only 2 manus are now interested on a whole new top tier category and having 2 manus is simply too short for any credible top motorsport series, as the WRC itself experienced on the late 00's.
    How many manufacturers are interested in running the series with Rally2 cars? I don't think we have confirmation from any manufacturers on this.

  2. Likes: pantealex (30th October 2020)
  3. #892
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    Quote Originally Posted by AnttiL View Post
    How many manufacturers are interested in running the series with Rally2 cars? I don't think we have confirmation from any manufacturers on this.
    True - and I don't buy the idea of R5+. If you make it different/upgraded, costs arise , it will be limited to a number of "selected" (works ?) teams, and i agree that then there may be no point in moving away from Rally1

    It is either you keep it as is, with two well separated class, with tier 1 reserved for the happy few (whichever Manu wants to invest), or you "downgrade" to basic R5 (with eturbo if you want a green label) that everyone can afford. The championship is then mostly run for private / works-supported entries. In other words, it is either WEC, or GT3.

    There is no point in debating "what could be". WEC at its peak with 3 full works team + multiple works teams running the second class (GTEPro) was awsesome. And so was WRC a few years back with 4 works team fighting tooth and nail. But today's WEC (with now only a single top team and a diwndeling number of works GTEPro teams) may give an hindsight of were WRC is heading is Matton and the FIA boys remain stubborn ...

  4. Likes: AndyRAC (30th October 2020)
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    Senior Member AnttiL's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by djip View Post
    But today's WEC (with now only a single top team and a diwndeling number of works GTEPro teams) may give an hindsight of were WRC is heading is Matton and the FIA boys remain stubborn ...
    I would say this is a reflection on how the world has changed over the last decade, and even more so during the last two years, rather than FIA's decisions.

  6. #894
    Senior Member Rally Power's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by AnttiL View Post
    How many manufacturers are interested in running the series with Rally2 cars? I don't think we have confirmation from any manufacturers on this.
    There's no confirmation once running Rally2 (ideally in Rally2+ mode) as the WRC top category isn't still under consideration, but it certainly has a larger potential to attract more manus than Rally1 Hybrids now has.

    MSport and Citroen (the C3 continues to be developed at Versailles and it's Citroen who's paying PHSport to run Ostberg) are already running Rally2 cars, Toyota is developing the Yaris and Hyundai and Skoda would get the perfect chance to promote their new models ('21 i20 and '22 Fabia), at least on a semi-official way (supporting top private teams).

    Btw, let me ask you the other way around: do you really believe that it's viable to start Rally1 Hybrids with only 2 manus involved?
    Rally addict since 1982

  7. Likes: RS (30th October 2020),Sulland (30th October 2020),T16 (30th October 2020)
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    Quote Originally Posted by AnttiL View Post
    I think we must be ready to give away some aspects of the sport we have now with the current cars in order to save the series. There's only bad choices, and we must choose the least bad.

    Where do you get the impression that Rally1 cars will be slower than Rally2 cars?
    Yeah - agreed that we seemingly only have bad choices now. I was questioning where in the thread there was a consensus that the new format was going to be 'better and cheaper' according to Wyler. I thought the new Rally1 would be more expensive, especially with the hybrid element.

    I'm not sure where I said I thought Rally1 would be slower that Rally2 - I must have got my words mixed up if I did.

    On a side note: I didn't realise the implications of s space framed chassis, i.e. that it may allow for more entrants and potentially cheaper costs.

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    Senior Member AnttiL's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Rally Power View Post
    MSport and Citroen (the C3 continues to be developed at Versailles and it's Citroen who's paying PHSport to run Ostberg) are already running Rally2 cars, Toyota is developing the Yaris and Hyundai and Skoda would get the perfect chance to promote their new models ('21 i20 and '22 Fabia), at least on a semi-official way (supporting top private teams).
    This sounds like a lot of petrolhead logic. It feels like I'm talking to walls, but I'm repeating my points which I've already said in previous posts.
    - Developing, renting and selling Rally2 cars is business of the racing departments, which doesn't require budget from the manufacturer, like running a whole WRC season would
    - The drivers in WRC2 teams are mostly bringing budget in, not being paid by the manufacturer (not sure about Østberg though)
    - Skoda and Citroen just quit their factory teams in rallying. What makes you believe they would return?
    - I don't believe that the manufacturers want to put money in marketing their ICE cars in rallying
    - Even if we slap on hybrid systems onto the Rally2 cars, it's a problem for the manufacturers that the street models of these cars are mostly not hybrid.

    Btw, let me ask you the other way around: do you really believe that it's viable to start Rally1 Hybrids with only 2 manus involved?
    No, it doesn't sound good, but 2 is more than 1 or 0.

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    Senior Member Mirek's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by AnttiL View Post
    - Skoda and Citroen just quit their factory teams in rallying. What makes you believe they would return?
    At this moment it looks like Škoda withdrew even from its home national championship here in Czechia for 2021. It's said it would only support privateers.
    Stupid is as stupid does. Forrest Gump

  11. Likes: AnttiL (30th October 2020)
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    Quote Originally Posted by T16 View Post
    Yeah - agreed that we seemingly only have bad choices now. I was questioning where in the thread there was a consensus that the new format was going to be 'better and cheaper' according to Wyler. I thought the new Rally1 would be more expensive, especially with the hybrid element.

    I'm not sure where I said I thought Rally1 would be slower that Rally2 - I must have got my words mixed up if I did.

    On a side note: I didn't realise the implications of s space framed chassis, i.e. that it may allow for more entrants and potentially cheaper costs.
    Never said there was consensus, just saying we are reflecting on this, as Fia and manus are doing. How to make rally1 better and cheaper. Every idea is good, if about rally1 specs. I just "ruled out" bringing rally2 as top class cause doensn't seem the way thing's are going in the button room, we discussed it already a lot here, and -simply- the topic was about rally1 class.
    By the way: if we talk about pumping rally2 with power, aero &performance, we are basically talk about rally1, a different thing than rally2.
    Agreed on space frame chassis, one of the viable idea people is discussing! : )

  13. Likes: T16 (31st October 2020)
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    Senior Member AnttiL's Avatar
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    WRC future

    Quote Originally Posted by wyler View Post
    By the way: if we talk about pumping rally2 with power, aero &performance, we are basically talk about rally1, a different thing than rally2.
    Rally1 will have a hybrid system, space frame construction, common safety cage and GRE engine. The body shell can be scaled down. These are the major conceptual differences to Rally2, which is modified from a production car.

    However, the cost and performance of a pumped-up Rally2 car could be close to a Rally1 car. Lots of unknowns.

  15. Likes: T16 (31st October 2020)
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    Senior Member Rally Power's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by AnttiL View Post
    This sounds like a lot of petrolhead logic. It feels like I'm talking to walls, but I'm repeating my points which I've already said in previous posts.
    - Developing, renting and selling Rally2 cars is business of the racing departments, which doesn't require budget from the manufacturer, like running a whole WRC season would
    - The drivers in WRC2 teams are mostly bringing budget in, not being paid by the manufacturer (not sure about Østberg though)
    - Skoda and Citroen just quit their factory teams in rallying. What makes you believe they would return?
    - I don't believe that the manufacturers want to put money in marketing their ICE cars in rallying
    - Even if we slap on hybrid systems onto the Rally2 cars, it's a problem for the manufacturers that the street models of these cars are mostly not hybrid.
    Sorry mate, but you're missing the most important point: motorsport budgets are being slashed by the manus and each series must make overall costs more competitive and attractive.

    For sure some expenses (staff, logistics, consumable) will cost more or less the same no matter what car is used, but the development and running costs (way higher than drivers salaries) are directly linked to the tech level of the cars.

    High-tech Rally1 cars costing over €600k (their hybrid system alone was priced around 150k) will certainly make manus think twice when compared to Rally2 cars price (largely below 300k).

    Btw, mild hybrids are becoming current in any car segment.
    Rally addict since 1982

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