Page 11 of 14 FirstFirst ... 910111213 ... LastLast
Results 101 to 110 of 132
  1. #101
    Senior Member
    Join Date
    May 2015
    Location
    Greenwich, London UK
    Posts
    3,438
    Like
    14
    Liked 789 Times in 651 Posts
    Quote Originally Posted by airshifter View Post
    In all fairness, I was thinking it before it was stated on air. The worst thing for Seb is that he acknowledged the swap and just "postponed" it until he ignored it. He would have looked better if he just played dumb the first time they mentioned it.
    I think we would see the situation differently and that is ok. And l am not trying to defend Sebastien's conduct. We all know after "multi 21" that Seb would not comply with any agreement that he does not benefit from.

    My particular qualms with the whole thing was that there should not have been an agreement, especially since they are not in the fight for the drivers championship but have a slim chance with the constructors title. Ferrari should have let their drivers race but ensure that they occupy the 1st and 2nd position after the start.

    Leclerc just pissed me off with his whining. I have not heard that much whining since Alonso and the Honda engine.
    Better a witty fool than a foolish wit.
    William Shakespeare

  2. #102
    Senior Member
    Join Date
    Feb 2001
    Posts
    8,410
    Like
    483
    Liked 785 Times in 582 Posts
    Chuck is a smart kid .
    He should have thought about the inherent disadvantage in it before he went out and took pole .
    And , maybe should have thought about "multi 21" before making the agreement .

    He's just learning .

  3. #103
    Senior Member truefan72's Avatar
    Join Date
    May 2005
    Location
    Philadelphia
    Posts
    5,943
    Like
    1,228
    Liked 373 Times in 289 Posts
    Quote Originally Posted by The Black Knight View Post
    I agree but anyone blaming LeClerc for wanting his Vettel to stick to the pre-race agreement is off their rocker.
    I do blame Leclerc for exacerbating the situation.
    Of the 2 drivers, clearly he was the slower one.
    he got a poorer start (no matter what ferrari officially say to cover their ass)
    and he absolutely could not keep up with Vettel's pace, to the point where Hamilton was able to stay in striking distance with mediums compared to leclerc's softs
    Hamilton to his credit came out and explained how difficult it was to stay with the Ferrari ahead of him, essentially doing qualifying laps to do so
    Meanwhile Leclerc just decided to whine constantly over the radio, even when he knew that he had a poorer start and less race pace than Vettel.
    That should null and void any gentleman's agreement foolishly made prior to the start.
    If they were racing nose to tail for the first 5 laps and then he backed up to save his tires, then came right back at vettel a few laps later, then i would see his point.
    but he didn't and then tried to engineer his way to the front.
    Just because you got pole on a saturday is no guarantee that it finishes that way on a sunday.
    It also isn't your right to be on the lead after the red lights go out.
    This isn't the first race at sochi and everyone knows the track. It is what it is.
    But only Ferrari manage to mess things up royally. Both the team and leclerc come off looking bad.
    This has been their pattern all season long. Trying to control the race from the pits.
    Early in the year, it was them favoring vettel to Leclerc's detriment and now they have turned it around completely.
    How about just letting them race from the start and the only instruction be to not take each other out. If a situation comes up during the race that makes sense then do so. But certainly not stupid agreements prearranged in a bizarre way to mitigate the nature of the track to one driver's benefit. Getting pole is no inherent right to win the race. All it says is that you were fastes on saturday and have a slight advantage starting the race.
    you can't argue with results.

  4. Likes: gm99 (2nd October 2019)
  5. #104
    Senior Member Tazio's Avatar
    Join Date
    Mar 2006
    Location
    San Diego, Ca
    Posts
    15,361
    Like
    1,116
    Liked 642 Times in 508 Posts
    Quote Originally Posted by Bagwan View Post
    Chuck is a smart kid .
    He should have thought about the inherent disadvantage in it before he went out and took pole .
    And , maybe should have thought about "multi 21" before making the agreement .

    He's just learning .
    Agree Baggie! the "multi 21" part is worth remembering! As for making agreements; it must be awfully hard to go against "The Dons" at Ferrari! Seb will soon be sleeping with the fishes! (metaphorically speaking of course)
    May the forza be with you

  6. #105
    Senior Member
    Join Date
    May 2015
    Location
    Greenwich, London UK
    Posts
    3,438
    Like
    14
    Liked 789 Times in 651 Posts
    Quote Originally Posted by truefan72 View Post
    I do blame Leclerc for exacerbating the situation.
    Of the 2 drivers, clearly he was the slower one.
    he got a poorer start (no matter what ferrari officially say to cover their ass)
    and he absolutely could not keep up with Vettel's pace, to the point where Hamilton was able to stay in striking distance with mediums compared to leclerc's softs
    Hamilton to his credit came out and explained how difficult it was to stay with the Ferrari ahead of him, essentially doing qualifying laps to do so
    Meanwhile Leclerc just decided to whine constantly over the radio, even when he knew that he had a poorer start and less race pace than Vettel.
    That should null and void any gentleman's agreement foolishly made prior to the start.
    If they were racing nose to tail for the first 5 laps and then he backed up to save his tires, then came right back at vettel a few laps later, then i would see his point.
    but he didn't and then tried to engineer his way to the front.
    Just because you got pole on a saturday is no guarantee that it finishes that way on a sunday.
    It also isn't your right to be on the lead after the red lights go out.
    This isn't the first race at sochi and everyone knows the track. It is what it is.
    But only Ferrari manage to mess things up royally. Both the team and leclerc come off looking bad.
    This has been their pattern all season long. Trying to control the race from the pits.
    Early in the year, it was them favoring vettel to Leclerc's detriment and now they have turned it around completely.
    How about just letting them race from the start and the only instruction be to not take each other out. If a situation comes up during the race that makes sense then do so. But certainly not stupid agreements prearranged in a bizarre way to mitigate the nature of the track to one driver's benefit. Getting pole is no inherent right to win the race. All it says is that you were fastes on saturday and have a slight advantage starting the race.
    Tell them buddy, tell them!
    Better a witty fool than a foolish wit.
    William Shakespeare

  7. #106
    Senior Member
    Join Date
    May 2015
    Location
    Greenwich, London UK
    Posts
    3,438
    Like
    14
    Liked 789 Times in 651 Posts
    Quote Originally Posted by Tazio View Post
    Agree Baggie! the "multi 21" part is worth remembering! As for making agreements; it must be awfully hard to go against "The Dons" at Ferrari! Seb will soon be sleeping with the fishes! (metaphorically speaking of course)
    Yep, l think l would be looking around if l were Seb. His Ferrari days are numbered.
    Better a witty fool than a foolish wit.
    William Shakespeare

  8. #107
    Senior Member
    Join Date
    May 2011
    Posts
    2,858
    Like
    62
    Liked 478 Times in 371 Posts
    Quote Originally Posted by truefan72 View Post
    I do blame Leclerc for exacerbating the situation.
    Of the 2 drivers, clearly he was the slower one.
    he got a poorer start (no matter what ferrari officially say to cover their ass)
    and he absolutely could not keep up with Vettel's pace, to the point where Hamilton was able to stay in striking distance with mediums compared to leclerc's softs
    Hamilton to his credit came out and explained how difficult it was to stay with the Ferrari ahead of him, essentially doing qualifying laps to do so
    Meanwhile Leclerc just decided to whine constantly over the radio, even when he knew that he had a poorer start and less race pace than Vettel.
    That should null and void any gentleman's agreement foolishly made prior to the start.
    If they were racing nose to tail for the first 5 laps and then he backed up to save his tires, then came right back at vettel a few laps later, then i would see his point.
    but he didn't and then tried to engineer his way to the front.
    Just because you got pole on a saturday is no guarantee that it finishes that way on a sunday.
    It also isn't your right to be on the lead after the red lights go out.
    This isn't the first race at sochi and everyone knows the track. It is what it is.
    But only Ferrari manage to mess things up royally. Both the team and leclerc come off looking bad.
    This has been their pattern all season long. Trying to control the race from the pits.
    Early in the year, it was them favoring vettel to Leclerc's detriment and now they have turned it around completely.
    How about just letting them race from the start and the only instruction be to not take each other out. If a situation comes up during the race that makes sense then do so. But certainly not stupid agreements prearranged in a bizarre way to mitigate the nature of the track to one driver's benefit. Getting pole is no inherent right to win the race. All it says is that you were fastes on saturday and have a slight advantage starting the race.
    I think we all agree that these arrangements are foolish and should not be made but the part in bold is where you guys are going wrong. The agreement is the agreement regardless of whether Vettel was faster or not. Him being faster has nothing to do with the agreement and is entirely irrelevant. If he was faster like that I’m sure he could have passed LeClerc after he kept to the arrangement that was made pre race. Otherwise tough shit, he cannot just renege on the agreement just because it doesn’t suit him anymore.

  9. Likes: Bagwan (2nd October 2019)
  10. #108
    Senior Member
    Join Date
    Feb 2001
    Posts
    8,410
    Like
    483
    Liked 785 Times in 582 Posts
    Quote Originally Posted by The Black Knight View Post
    I think we all agree that these arrangements are foolish and should not be made but the part in bold is where you guys are going wrong. The agreement is the agreement regardless of whether Vettel was faster or not. Him being faster has nothing to do with the agreement and is entirely irrelevant. If he was faster like that I’m sure he could have passed LeClerc after he kept to the arrangement that was made pre race. Otherwise tough shit, he cannot just renege on the agreement just because it doesn’t suit him anymore.
    Totally agree with you TBK .
    Seb was trying to nullify the agreement by going fast enough to make it impractical .
    It would be the only way for him to go if he felt he was being mistreated , being essentially forced into this agreement , and I think it was likely the case here .

    I don't like that he didn't comply , but I don't like the thought that he'd be forced into such a dumb agreement , when the priority should just have been to be 1-2 out the turn 1 .

  11. #109
    Senior Member
    Join Date
    May 2015
    Location
    Greenwich, London UK
    Posts
    3,438
    Like
    14
    Liked 789 Times in 651 Posts
    Quote Originally Posted by The Black Knight View Post
    I think we all agree that these arrangements are foolish and should not be made but the part in bold is where you guys are going wrong. The agreement is the agreement regardless of whether Vettel was faster or not. Him being faster has nothing to do with the agreement and is entirely irrelevant. If he was faster like that I’m sure he could have passed LeClerc after he kept to the arrangement that was made pre race. Otherwise tough shit, he cannot just renege on the agreement just because it doesn’t suit him anymore.
    The problem with your argument is you assumed that Vettel agreed to the arrangement. You don't even know if he was pressured into the agreement. But you happily argue that he must comply to the agreement.

    Quote Originally Posted by Bagwan View Post

    I don't like that he didn't comply , but I don't like the thought that he'd be forced into such a dumb agreement , when the priority should just have been to be 1-2 out the turn 1 .
    You finally get it. Vettel is not in the race to finish 2nd, he is in it to win. Any agreement with a result to the contrary will not register with him. And l am very much in agreement with him. I did not like the Multi 21 arrangement either.
    Better a witty fool than a foolish wit.
    William Shakespeare

  12. #110
    Senior Member N. Jones's Avatar
    Join Date
    Sep 2004
    Location
    Woodridge, Illinois, USA
    Posts
    4,478
    Like
    634
    Liked 1,066 Times in 598 Posts
    It seems to me that the undercut that help Vettel so much in Singapore was going to help LeClerc is Russia. By that logic what happened at the start was to allow Ferrari a 1-2, keep Hamilton behind and use that order to dictate a strategy where they could win 1-2.
    Do we all not agree that had Vettel's car not given up the pit stops would have allowed LeClerc to end up in 1st with Vettel in 2nd, finishing the GP with a Ferrari 1-2?
    Last edited by N. Jones; 2nd October 2019 at 20:06.
    " Lady - I'm in an awful dilemma.
    Moe - Yeah, I never cared much for these foreign cars either."

Posting Permissions

  • You may not post new threads
  • You may not post replies
  • You may not post attachments
  • You may not edit your posts
  •