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  1. #71
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    Quote Originally Posted by The Black Knight View Post
    I agree. I don’t like these arrangements either. Regardless, The agreement still needs to be held ip by both sides if they do make one. This sort of nonsense is why I am not a Ferrari fan.
    Maybe so, but all parties must play their role efficiently. On this occasion, Leclerc had a poor start compared to Vettel and sort of expected Vettel not to overtake him which is unrealistic. In this scennario, Vettel has no oligation to Leclerc. That is how everyone sees it.
    Last edited by Nitrodaze; 30th September 2019 at 10:29.
    Better a witty fool than a foolish wit.
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  2. Likes: truefan72 (30th September 2019)
  3. #72
    Senior Member Tazio's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by airshifter View Post
    Strange race to say the least.

    Whatever agreement was made before the start, they managed to piss off both drivers doing it. First Leclerc by not putting their foot down with Seb, then Seb by leaving him out to let Leclerc get out ahead again.Maybe something as simple as **gasp** let the drivers race as long as they don't destroy the cars would work better?
    Ya' think?? The members who go back far enough know what a big Ferrari honk I used to be, however I lost respect for their "organization", or maybe "gang" would be a better term. Talk about trying to micro-manage a race, this was absurd. I like McLerc but the team is turning him into a monster, and I don't mean in a good way. Him and Seb are probably both ready for the psychiatrists couch. I will give Ferrari one break. It has been a long time since they have had to manage races from the front. Obviously they are a little rusty!
    I guess the best thing to do is just put it behind them after this strong dose of reality... I tell ya''awl boyz I'm about ready to have this removed



    Quote Originally Posted by air'
    Then I think they added insult to injury by pitting Leclerc under the safety car. I personally think he would have stayed ahead of Bottas without the stop, and the first stint should have showed them that the chances of catching up to Lewis were slim to none anyway.
    I'm not so sure about the part I emboldened. The first stint Ferrari were probably on tire conservation mode, and may well have underestimated Merc's race pace relative to them. In retrospect it was a bad move, and full credit needs to go to Botta' for his defense. But it is true, when it came right down to it Ferrari weren't fast enough in race trim to pull that move off!
    Said "The Boss" of the first stint:
    "After that it was just trying to keep up with them, but it was like trying to do qualifying laps every lap trying to keep up with them because they were so fast. It was massive challenge but one I'm really proud of."
    https://www.motorsport.com/f1/news/h...rrari/4550483/
    Quote Originally Posted by air'
    Merc might have got lucky with strategy, but the timing of that VSC gave them a race 1-2 finish. With the qually differences I thought Leclerc might have a better shot at Bottas, but it seemed that holding off the Ferrari wasn't all that hard for him really. Without that VSC I think the Ferrari's still would have come out on top, but Merc did have good race pace. Lewis did a good job staying on the back of Leclerc with the tire differences, but I think attacking would have been out of the question.

    Great action through the midfield today. DOTD for me would have been Albon, as that was a come from the pits drive that most of us only expect from the more proven greats. Really the lower 5 of the top 10 all had really good drives today.
    Agreed, I think Sainz also stood out in this race. He seemed to only be limited by the McLaren performance!
    Last edited by Tazio; 30th September 2019 at 16:45.
    May the forza be with you

  4. #73
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    Quote Originally Posted by Nitrodaze View Post
    Maybe so, but all parties must play their role efficiently. On this occasion, Leclerc had a poor start compared to Vettel and sort of expected Vettel not to overtake him which is unrealistic. In this scennario, Vettel has no oligation to Leclerc. That is how everyone sees it.
    Both their starts were equal, Ferrari have confirmed this after the race. LeClerc gave the slipstream and that is what cost him the lead. Without the slipstream it is highly unlikely Vettel would have overtaken LeClerc. In the end of the day an agreement is an agreement. If they hadn’t discussed all variables involved then what has been pre-agreed must be kept to regardless of any other unspoken variables. The point here is that there could easily have been other variables that were taken into account. It’s impossible to predict them all therefore if you make such an arrangement all
    Parties must keep their end of the bargain regardless of the extenuating unforeseen circumstances which are, at best, subjective.

  5. #74
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    Quote Originally Posted by The Black Knight View Post
    Both their starts were equal, Ferrari have confirmed this after the race. LeClerc gave the slipstream and that is what cost him the lead. Without the slipstream it is highly unlikely Vettel would have overtaken LeClerc. In the end of the day an agreement is an agreement. If they hadn’t discussed all variables involved then what has been pre-agreed must be kept to regardless of any other unspoken variables. The point here is that there could easily have been other variables that were taken into account. It’s impossible to predict them all therefore if you make such an arrangement all
    Parties must keep their end of the bargain regardless of the extenuating unforeseen circumstances which are, at best, subjective.
    My point is the slipstream is there regardless of what Leclerc do or don't do. The question was who would have benfittted from the slipstream if there were no agreement. If Leclerc tried to prevent Vettel from using the slipstream, Hamilton would have taken the slipstream for his own advantage. It was an unavoidable weakness of starting from pole at Sochi.

    What l am pissed off with Leclerc and Ferrari about is that, they are trying to negotiate a deal for Leclerc to maintain his position at the front by attempting to prevent Vettel from benefiting from this inherent weakness of pole. They want to use Vettel to ensure that Hamilton did not use the slipstream to leapfrog Leclerc into the lead of the race and use that to win the race considering how fast Mercedes race pace was. But at the same time, trying to ensure that Vettel stays in second place like a good boy that he is.

    That is what is not acceptable to pure fans of F1 racing. If this is what to come with Ferrari dominating, then l hope Mercedes find a solution to their shortcoming and beat these f**kers back where they belong.
    Better a witty fool than a foolish wit.
    William Shakespeare

  6. Likes: Tazio (30th September 2019),truefan72 (30th September 2019)
  7. #75
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    The open pits under VSC are a joke and a mockery of the sport. VSC was meant to preserve the state of the race for the duration of the yellow flag period. And yet, every time there has been a VSC period, we see cars coming to the pits for a "free" tire change. Of course, this serves the holdouts who don't come into pits until the last possible moment, but it screws up others who pitted earlier. This has to stop.

  8. #76
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    Quote Originally Posted by Nitrodaze View Post
    My point is the slipstream is there regardless of what Leclerc do or don't do. The question was who would have benfittted from the slipstream if there were no agreement. If Leclerc tried to prevent Vettel from using the slipstream, Hamilton would have taken the slipstream for his own advantage. It was an unavoidable weakness of starting from pole at Sochi.

    What l am pissed off with Leclerc and Ferrari about is that, they are trying to negotiate a deal for Leclerc to maintain his position at the front by attempting to prevent Vettel from benefiting from this inherent weakness of pole. They want to use Vettel to ensure that Hamilton did not use the slipstream to leapfrog Leclerc into the lead of the race and use that to win the race considering how fast Mercedes race pace was. But at the same time, trying to ensure that Vettel stays in second place like a good boy that he is.

    That is what is not acceptable to pure fans of F1 racing. If this is what to come with Ferrari dominating, then l hope Mercedes find a solution to their shortcoming and beat these f**kers back where they belong.
    No it wasn’t, not for Vettel. It could have just as easily been there for Hamilton. And that’s the point. WIFM? What’s in it for me in LeClerc’s shoes? Hamilton had a shite start so even with the slipstream it’s unlikely he would have got the lead. As for Vettel, you cannot have your cake and eat it. You can’t expect your teammate (and team) to help you and screw them over in the process. By refusing to let LeClerc by, he was screwing both team and LeClerc. The agreement was Vettel would let LeClerc past again if he gained first from LeClerc providing him the slipstream. That’s why Vettel came over the radio claiming “I would have got by ANYWAY”. That’s really the key here. He cannot judge that, he cannot be certain of that and it’s irrelevant. The deal wasn’t “I’ll let you by if I get into first provided I judge that I wouldn’t have gotten by without your help anyway”. It was that he would let him by regardless. That’s what wasn’t acceptable to Ferrari and it’s why they pitted LeClerc early to get past Vettel. Vettel had to be put into second place because THAT’S WHAT HE AGREED. Vettel got what he deserved, a race retirement. So did Ferrari but for once I’m thoroughly with Ferrari and the way they handled it, although not happy they had the agreement in the first place.

  9. Likes: Firstgear (30th September 2019)
  10. #77
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    Quote Originally Posted by The Black Knight View Post
    No it wasn’t, not for Vettel. It could have just as easily been there for Hamilton.
    But that was my point, It didn't matter that Hamilton had a bad start, he was further ahead than Vettel and most likely to get into the slipstream of Leclerc if Vettel was not using the slipstream. The realistic option for the Ferrari team was to ensure a one-two off the start in whichever order it shakes out. So Leclerc can try to not give the slipstream to anyone but that would be unrealistic, in the end one of those two [Hamilton or Vettel] would take the slipstream regardless of what Leclerc wants.

    So the agreement is daft and l am surprised they expect Vettel a four time champion and one of the hardest racers on the grid to go along with that crap frankly. I think they and Leclerc in particular should be ashamed of themselves. Whinny Leclerc has lost my respect at this race.
    Better a witty fool than a foolish wit.
    William Shakespeare

  11. Likes: Bagwan (30th September 2019)
  12. #78
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    Quote Originally Posted by Nitrodaze View Post
    But that was my point, It didn't matter that Hamilton had a bad start, he was further ahead than Vettel and most likely to get into the slipstream of Leclerc if Vettel was not using the slipstream. The realistic option for the Ferrari team was to ensure a one-two off the start in whichever order it shakes out. So Leclerc can try to not give the slipstream to anyone but that would be unrealistic, in the end one of those two [Hamilton or Vettel] would take the slipstream regardless of what Leclerc wants.

    So the agreement is daft and l am surprised they expect Vettel a four time champion and one of the hardest racers on the grid to go along with that crap frankly. I think they and Leclerc in particular should be ashamed of themselves. Whinny Leclerc has lost my respect at this race.
    I agree it was daft but that’s irrelevant. The agreement was made, Vettel agreed to it and it was up to him to honour that agreement. He didn’t and he got what he deserved for it as did Ferrari for putting the agreement place to begin with. I have zero issues with Charles position on this because he held up his side of the bargain. I can’t really see why you would lose respect for him when he was the one Vettel tried to screw over. He was quite entitled to be irate.

  13. Likes: Bagwan (30th September 2019)
  14. #79
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    Quote Originally Posted by zako85 View Post
    The open pits under VSC are a joke and a mockery of the sport. VSC was meant to preserve the state of the race for the duration of the yellow flag period. And yet, every time there has been a VSC period, we see cars coming to the pits for a "free" tire change. Of course, this serves the holdouts who don't come into pits until the last possible moment, but it screws up others who pitted earlier. This has to stop.
    Agreed and a simplest way to resolve it is that cars not be allowed pit during a VSC periods.

  15. #80
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    Quote Originally Posted by The Black Knight View Post
    I agree it was daft but that’s irrelevant. The agreement was made, Vettel agreed to it and it was up to him to honour that agreement. He didn’t and he got what he deserved for it as did Ferrari for putting the agreement place to begin with. I have zero issues with Charles position on this because he held up his side of the bargain. I can’t really see why you would lose respect for him when he was the one Vettel tried to screw over. He was quite entitled to be irate.
    I have no regard for drivers who would not win on merit but prefer to use other drivers to prop themselves up. This is why in my eyes, Hamilton is the greatest world champion in recent times. He would fight anyone on equal footing with no demand for favoritism for being a multiple world champion.

    Of course at some point the team must do what it takes to ensure they win both titles once it has become mathematically clear who is most likely to win the driver's championship. We are not at that position with Ferrari which is why this crappy agreement shinanigan annoys me so much.

    Vettel would leave Sochi feeling the Ferrari team are unlikely to give him a fair chance to race in the future. We saw how they messed Raikonen about. In a sense, Vettel is getting a taste what that felt like for Kimi, while he enjoy the No 1 status. Which beggars the question, is Vettel leaving Ferrari, if so where is he heading. There may be something in the gossip that he may be returning to Redbull. Bottas's seat is vcacant in 2021, that may also be a possibility.

    Binotto and his pitwall crew have really f*cked this one up good.
    Last edited by Nitrodaze; 30th September 2019 at 19:39.
    Better a witty fool than a foolish wit.
    William Shakespeare

  16. Likes: truefan72 (30th September 2019)

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