2019 Russian GP - Sochi

[The Black Knight]

The problem with your argument is you assumed that Vettel agreed to the arrangement. You don't even know if he was pressured into the agreement. But you happily argue that he must comply to the agreement.



You finally get it. Vettel is not in the race to finish 2nd, he is in it to win. Any agreement with a result to the contrary will not register with him. And l am very much in agreement with him. I did not like the Multi 21 arrangement either.

That’s just hearsay. We haven’t heard anything from team or driver that indicates he was forced into this agreement. If it turns out in future that he was, then that would, of course, change my opinion. Unless that turns out to be the case it’s just make believe, pie in the sky, wishful fairy land thinking on anyones part.

Considering Seb had no issue threatening RBR with a letter from his lawyers post Malaysia 2013 Multi 21 saga, I find it hard to believe Ferrari would be able to force him to agree to anything he doesn’t want.

[Nitrodaze]

That’s just hearsay. We haven’t heard anything from team or driver that indicates he was forced into this agreement. If it turns out in future that he was, then that would, of course, change my opinion. Unless that turns out to be the case it’s just make believe, pie in the sky, wishful fairy land thinking on anyones part.

Considering Seb had no issue threatening RBR with a letter from his lawyers post Malaysia 2013 Multi 21 saga, I find it hard to believe Ferrari would be able to force him to agree to anything he doesn’t want.

Wow, guilty until proven innocent!
But you still assume that he agreed to the agreement.
The team can make it awkward for Vettel to say no and he may decide not respond with an answer which may have been taken by the team as affirmation of an agreement.

[Nitrodaze]

It seems to me that the undercut that help Vettel so much in Singapore was going to help LeClerc is Russia. By that logic what happened at the start was to allow Ferrari a 1-2, keep Hamilton behind and use that order to dictate a strategy where they could win 1-2.
Do we all not agree that had Vettel's car not given up the pit stops would have allowed LeClerc to end up in 1st with Vettel in 2nd, finishing the GP with a Ferrari 1-2?

That was very much agreed and understood. The argument here is that we did not like Ferrari messing with the race outcome by some dodgy agreement for Vettel not to race Leclerc fair and square after the start.

The counter argument is criticizing Vettel for not honoring the agreement to not race Leclerc and finish 2nd behind Leclerc in a Ferrari one-two formation. I say bullshit! Let the drivers race, that is what several thousands of fans pay dear money to see. Not an arranged outcome.

[The Black Knight]

Wow, guilty until proven innocent!
But you still assume that he agreed to the agreement.
Teams can make it awkward for Vettel to say no and he may decide not respond with an answer which may have been taken by the team as affirmation of an agreement.

Vettel stated clearly after the race that there was an agreement. Now you’re going so far as to suppose what way Vettel may have responded in a meeting. Smh. If that’s all you’re left with your argument is lost, buddy!

[Nitrodaze]

Vettel stated clearly after the race that there was an agreement. Now you’re going so far as to suppose what way Vettel may have responded in a meeting. Smh. If that’s all you’re left with your argument is lost, buddy!

Vettel also said that the agreement did not stand because the circumstance of the race had changed and he felt they were open to race each other. You are being selective of what you choose to acknowlege as the facts.

You are clearly not going to give in to anything contrary to your point of view. So shall we say we agree to differ on this.

[The Black Knight]

Vettel also said that the agreement did not stand because the circumstance of the race had changed and he felt they were open to race each other. You are being selective of what you choose to acknowlege as the facts.

You are clearly not going to give in to anything contrary to your point of view. So shall we say we agree to differ on this.

And Vettel stating that is where he was going back on the agreement. Again, what he felt had or had not changed didn’t matter because the agreement must be kept regardless of how he felt. This is what you’re again not getting. It is irrelevant how he felt or how he saw it once he agreed to the arrangement that was in place he should have kept it. I’m acknowledging all the facts, you’re the one making stuff up, which is pretty much what all your point of view is made of, make believe suppositions.

[N. Jones]

That was very much agreed and understood. The argument here is that we did not like Ferrari messing with the race outcome by some dodgy agreement for Vettel not to race Leclerc fair and square after the start.

The counter argument is criticizing Vettel for not honoring the agreement to not race Leclerc and finish 2nd behind Leclerc in a Ferrari one-two formation. I say bullshit! Let the drivers race, that is what several thousands of fans pay dear money to see. Not an arranged outcome.

Ha! I knew Vettel wasn't going to give up the lead and I thought that the undercut was how Ferrari was going to swap positions if Vettel wouldn't let Charles by.
Yes, I love watching teammates race but the teams want the maximum points so they try to engineer final positions or try to keep the driver who is leading or chasing the drivers title with the biggest lead, hence 'let Michael pass you' and 'Fernando is faster than you' radio messages.

[truefan72]

I think we all agree that these arrangements are foolish and should not be made but the part in bold is where you guys are going wrong. The agreement is the agreement regardless of whether Vettel was faster or not. Him being faster has nothing to do with the agreement and is entirely irrelevant. If he was faster like that I’m sure he could have passed LeClerc after he kept to the arrangement that was made pre race. Otherwise tough shit, he cannot just renege on the agreement just because it doesn’t suit him anymore.

I respectfully (and gentlemanly lol) disagree TBK
There are circumstance that would void such an agreements
1. a poor start (which he had)
2. poor driving ( if he made error/s that affected his pace)
3. poor pace (when the leading car is pulling away from you as vettel did)
4. some kinda of mechanical issue
5. being hounded from behind (by Hamilton) which would make such a switch detrimental to the ability to win the race
And this point is the most important one of all.

Hamilton was keeping pace with Leclerc on mediums. Making the switch would mean that Vettel would have to slow down by about 4-5 seconds just to let leclerc bye and then compromise his race with the possibility of Hamilton passing him, or him getting stuck behind leclerc. And what would have happened if Vettel on the very next lap challenge and tried to pass leclerc? Given leclerc's defending of recent, it might have been all tears and shambles. Would Ferrari then tell a clearly faster Vettel to hold station and block hamilton? Would vettel accept that predicament? Not to mention the ensuing pit strategy. Who would you pit first? A slower Leclerc and then allow Vettel to overcut him while he gets stuck behind traffic and allow Hamilton to run longer on the mediums? All these questions and scenarios are real possibilities before the "retirement" of vettel's car...which only manged to compromise leclerc even more, aided by their botched pit strategy which should have had them in immediately instead of a lap later.

Oh well. We shall never know, But I expect more fireworks at suzuka where I now believe that Ferrari are more than likely to take pole again.

[truefan72]

It seems to me that the undercut that help Vettel so much in Singapore was going to help LeClerc is Russia. By that logic what happened at the start was to allow Ferrari a 1-2, keep Hamilton behind and use that order to dictate a strategy where they could win 1-2.
Do we all not agree that had Vettel's car not given up the pit stops would have allowed LeClerc to end up in 1st with Vettel in 2nd, finishing the GP with a Ferrari 1-2?

absolutely

[The Black Knight]

I respectfully (and gentlemanly lol) disagree TBK
There are circumstance that would void such an agreements
1. a poor start (which he had)
2. poor driving ( if he made error/s that affected his pace)
3. poor pace (when the leading car is pulling away from you as vettel did)
4. some kinda of mechanical issue
5. being hounded from behind (by Hamilton) which would make such a switch detrimental to the ability to win the race
And this point is the most important one of all.

Hamilton was keeping pace with Leclerc on mediums. Making the switch would mean that Vettel would have to slow down by about 4-5 seconds just to let leclerc bye and then compromise his race with the possibility of Hamilton passing him, or him getting stuck behind leclerc. And what would have happened if Vettel on the very next lap challenge and tried to pass leclerc? Given leclerc's defending of recent, it might have been all tears and shambles. Would Ferrari then tell a clearly faster Vettel to hold station and block hamilton? Would vettel accept that predicament? Not to mention the ensuing pit strategy. Who would you pit first? A slower Leclerc and then allow Vettel to overcut him while he gets stuck behind traffic and allow Hamilton to run longer on the mediums? All these questions and scenarios are real possibilities before the "retirement" of vettel's car...which only manged to compromise leclerc even more, aided by their botched pit strategy which should have had them in immediately instead of a lap later.

Oh well. We shall never know, But I expect more fireworks at suzuka where I now believe that Ferrari are more than likely to take pole again.

Hamilton wasn’t really keeping pace with LeClerc on the mediums. They dropped him fairly quick and the gap was around the 3 second mark on lap 8 while Vettel was only 1.3 seconds ahead of LeClerc at this point. This is the point Sebastien should have yielded and he has no excuse for not doing so. The subsequent gap Vettel made to LeClerc later on in the stint is more attributable to overheating tires due to following in the dirty air than any extra pace by Sebastien. At the start of the race he was clearly no quicker than LeClerc and should have yielded.