Silly Season 2020

[Japé]

How to figure out how Peugeot participation in WEC or DS in Formula E will bring more added value for PSA than Citroën would bring being in hybrid WRC?

What connection consumer sees between DS and Formula E?

Or what was the VW's gain not to allow private WRC entries after quitting, but then right after being present in R5 with privateers?

[Rally Power]

I don't wanna sound negative, but the 5-year plan doesn't mean a thing IF the executives at Citroen/PSA want to terminate the program. VW had made a similar plan and commitment and we all know how that turned out.

An open plea to Ogier: please don't sign with Toyota!

VW made the statement long before the Dieselgate.

Finot reports to PSA brands CEO’s and he just said they won’t suspend the program. There’s no need to keep speculating about Citroen immediate pull out.

What’s left to be seen is Ogier situation. It has been rumoured he wants additional warranties of being able to figth for the title (like a 3 cars team) and if those aren’t fulfilled he’ll probably try to break his contract and move to Toyota.

Bon voyage!

[Sulland]

Nice theory but just a theory.

Why do you think you can always make things cheaper? By magic wand? R5 rules managed to keep the cost same for some 7 years already. That's huge achievement alone. R5 rules work. Just don't fix what is not broken, please.



Guys, You really miss the bigger picture. The problem really isn't in few carbon wings. That's not why manufacturers leave. Citroën leaves because they don't win and because they don't gain much from the brand's involvement. In fact quite the opposite. If Ogier leaves it damages the brand because it shows them as incompetent. That really isn't about few thousand Euros for aero, active center diff or whatever. The carmakers have enough money to invest in the sport if they see it as worth the investment - but they have to do it right.

The last thing is IMHO what was wrong on Citroën side. It's actually the same thing like our never ending discussions about cheaper but slower cars (R4 thread for example). If you invest into something which is not good enough you throw the money out of the window. And that is what was wrong with Citroën. They invested a lot of money but not enough to be fully committed - ultimately they failed just like they had to, simply because the others have shown higher level of commitment. Look at VW or Toyota, or Škoda in WRC2. It's the same. If you decide to join you have to commit fully and be prepared to raise your game if others do that. Otherwise you are bound to fail and in that case all your investment goes in vain.

I have not read the finacial report from PSA, but I am guessing they do not make as much money as planned. When planning ahead, they must cut where it is easy. Motorsport is a low hanging fruite. If the sport activity does not give the wanted effect, commercially or development wise, you cut the activity from the budget. It has happened before, and it will happen again.

New technology is coming in the car industry, hybrid, electric and fuelcell is coming first, and the tech development will continue. The combustion engine has been more or less the same for a very long time, and have made great progress. This goes both for petrol and diesel engines, to a certain degree also the rotary wankel engine.

the manufacturers gets most from rally, since it gives them a very good testbed, better than track racing.

Back to the future of WRC. I share Mireks view on the R5 success. Clear concise rules, with only a few jokers have kept the development, and by that cost spiralling has been the basis for succes. The same rules have been used in R4, but it is too early to say if that class will blossom, the price difference in buying it might be too small up to R5, even after the price drop of the kit from Oreca.

I mean that R5 or Rally 2 will be a good gap filler from 2020 until the new tech rules for the top class of world rally are finalized, maybe for the 2022 season. But then the strict R5 rules must be kept by FIA, or cost will sky rocket. And I mean the tech rules should be tha same for all Rally 2 cars, no special rules for manufacurers. The best drivers will still win, but some times the results will give room for young and old talent, to make rallies even more exiting!

[Tarmop]

So you are saying to let those magnificent beasts sit in the garage and go for R5 until 2022? the sport will be dead by the time of Rally Monte Carlo then.
TGR would compete with...Fiestas? Top cat. drivers would be interested in stepping into slower cars...driving Safai in them...?
The silliest and most expensive idea to "reduce" costs.

[Mirek]

How to figure out how Peugeot participation in WEC or DS in Formula E will bring more added value for PSA than Citroën would bring being in hybrid WRC?

The thing is that we can not assess it from our outer point of view. We can only see their decisions and from that logically deduce that they choose what they see as better investment for them.

I have not read the finacial report from PSA, but I am guessing they do not make as much money as planned. When planning ahead, they must cut where it is easy. Motorsport is a low hanging fruite. If the sport activity does not give the wanted effect, commercially or development wise, you cut the activity from the budget. It has happened before, and it will happen again.

There is a saying that you can never make money by saving. Motorsport is part of the marketing and marketing is extremely important for sales of the carmakers. From that point of view they leave motorsport only if its marketing value is not seen as justifying its cost.

[denkimi]

No, because in the end, those 0.x seconds that makes one faster than the other one, cost the same..., maybe even more, because of the limitations.

No, the first seconds are cheap, the last hundereds cost millions.

If you limit costs in the most important and expensive area's, the big teams will spend their money on other things. But those other things will have a smaller influence.
Thus, instead of 0.x seconds gain per million, we will go to 0.0x seconds per million.

The biggest budget will still get you the best car, but the differences will be smaller and thus more easily to overcome as driver.

That's not true. The automotive world is changing and the value of a purely combustion series is decreasing.

Yes, but that has nothing to do with how much a wrc title costs.

And i wouldn't really claim that the value of combustion engines is decreasing. In the eu some governments try to push a green agenda, but globally the combustion engine is there to remain of a few more decades.

[Allez Andruet]

VW made the statement long before the Dieselgate.

Just like Citroen made its commitment few years ago and things surely have changed since.

Finot reports to PSA brands CEO’s and he just said they won’t suspend the program. There’s no need to keep speculating about Citroen immediate pull out.

The CEOs report to PSA managing board and those are the guys who eventually run the show. So anything's still possible. Let's hope for the best.

[Mirek]

And i wouldn't really claim that the value of combustion engines is decreasing. In the eu some governments try to push a green agenda, but globally the combustion engine is there to remain of a few more decades.

WRC is mainly a European thing despite having some events outside Europe. All the teams are European based as well. Also the push against the combustion engines is not only a European thing. China, Japan, South Korea or some US states are pushing against them as well.

Also look what the current WRC manufacturers produce - Toyota is close to a synonym for hybrid and Hyundai is pushing a lot in this field as well. They spend billions on hybrids and EVs and absolutely need to sell them. We can't pretend it's not like that.

[RS]

Who's this then?

https://twitter.com/skodaautonews/st...927545856?s=19

[mknight]

No, the first seconds are cheap, the last hundereds cost millions.

If you limit costs in the most important and expensive area's, the big teams will spend their money on other things. But those other things will have a smaller influence.
Thus, instead of 0.x seconds gain per million, we will go to 0.0x seconds per million.

The biggest budget will still get you the best car, but the differences will be smaller and thus more easily to overcome as driver.

Exactly, this is the perfect explanation to those saying that "rules don't matter cause the team with most money always gets an advantage". (Btw. if teams can't spend more money on development in a meaningful way they start to spend them on drivers = Hyundai right now)

Anyway think you all should really move the offtopic to the other thread.