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  1. #61
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    2019 Austrian GP - Redbull Ring

    Quote Originally Posted by Nitrodaze View Post
    You know what they say, what is good for the goose is good for the gander. When Verstapenn gets a similar treatment in the future, l hope he keeps his trap shut.
    He wonít because heís an F1 driver and they all turn into children when a decisions or moves go against them. These guys are young too and have grown up being told how great they are so being magnanimous is often a skill that is lacking.

    Good to see some racing after a long period of the sport being exceptionally dull. Not going to criticise it, more of it please.


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    Last edited by henners88; 3rd July 2019 at 07:07.
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  2. #62
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    Quote Originally Posted by The Black Knight View Post
    Incorrect. Charles could have conceded the corner he had clearly lost and tried to have a run at Max down the straight.

    I’m sure glad none of the posters here whinging on about wheel banging are not in the Stewards room.
    I really don't respect any driver that concedes a fight when the other driver has not had the job done completely. I doubt Verstapenn would have any respect for Leclerc if he had conceded and not forced him to have to force him off the track.

    And you really fail to understand the discussion. Nobody is disputing the decision of the stewards here. The only points made are there should have been a warning to Verstapenn for forcing Leclerc of the track. Because failing to do so would legitimize forcing opponents cars off the track in similar circumstance in the future. Your argument that it was ok for Verstapenn to force Leclerc off the track is noted. But we all agree that the decision to allow Verstapenn to keep the win was the right thing. Where we seem to disagree is that the incident in question was questionable and needed at least a warning to prevent other drivers from thinking it is OK to do so in the future.
    Last edited by Nitrodaze; 3rd July 2019 at 22:32.
    Better a witty fool than a foolish wit.
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  3. Likes: Bagwan (3rd July 2019),truefan72 (3rd July 2019)
  4. #63
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    Whether it's riding the kerbs and knocking Sainz out of the race in Bahrain, or completely missing the apex and barging Leclerc off last weekend (Or passing guys off track limits). Verstappen is a dirty driver who can't make genuine passing manoeuvres.

    While I get henners and TBK have some sort of perception of what "racing" is (As if to say that "racing" is some sort of boxing match", when it isn't?). Both have demonstrated little appreciation of what "driving" is. TBK's suggestion of Leclerc backing off is not consistent with someone who likes "hard racing".

    I think it's fair to say that a genuine, clean passing manoeuvre would be one where a guy passes another, and the overtaken driver can immediately pass back, only that he can't. Leclerc could easily have blasted ahead of Verstappen exiting the corner, but was shoved off by a guy who did not have control of the inertia of his car. anthropomorphize

    They stewards should have a focus on clean driving. If they did, the great drivers would shine. But people have this perception that "racing" is akin to "fighting", when it isn't.

    A weakness of a lot of fans, and in particular the stewards, is that they "anthropomorphise" car racing. Yes, there's a drivers in there having controlling the car. But instead of focusing on what the driver is doing, they should be focusing on what the cars are doing - Should the car be there and doing that? Yes, no, maybe.

    But instead you get idiots like Masi focusing on what the driver does, and going to huge lengths to justify himself "When Verstappen late apexed. Vettel moved his head.." All he's doing is making himself look like a fool, and making it difficult for myself and others later on.

    People might brush this off now. But there'll be other incidents later on. And they're just going to turn themselves in a knot.

  5. Likes: Bagwan (3rd July 2019)
  6. #64
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    Quote Originally Posted by The Black Knight View Post
    Incorrect. Charles could have conceded the corner he had clearly lost and tried to have a run at Max down the straight.

    Iím sure glad none of the posters here whinging on about wheel banging are not in the Stewards room.
    Here lies the only real similarity to the Canada , Vettel/Hamilton situation .
    Lewis backed out , seeing a driver careening across the track into his path , wisely judging that he would be risking too much , asserting his right to a car width outside of Seb .

    Whereas , Charles didn't back out , seeing his rival in full control , without any sign of lock-up , judged that , by the rules , he was entitled to space for his car outside of the Red Bull .
    Taking the wider line while staying level with your opponent is the only way to counter the inside dive .
    If he gets there first , you do back out , but if you are level with him you have a right to space .

    If he's sliding through , you back out and try to get inside him .
    Charles had that option , it's true , but the best option against a guy under control is to try to compromise your competitor's line by keeping him tighter into the corner .

    And , by the way , I would have been happy to see the wheel banging if it left both cars on track .

  7. Likes: journeyman racer (4th July 2019),truefan72 (3rd July 2019)
  8. #65
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    Quote Originally Posted by Bagwan View Post
    Here lies the only real similarity to the Canada , Vettel/Hamilton situation .
    Lewis backed out , seeing a driver careening across the track into his path , wisely judging that he would be risking too much , asserting his right to a car width outside of Seb .

    Whereas , Charles didn't back out , seeing his rival in full control , without any sign of lock-up , judged that , by the rules , he was entitled to space for his car outside of the Red Bull .
    Taking the wider line while staying level with your opponent is the only way to counter the inside dive .
    If he gets there first , you do back out , but if you are level with him you have a right to space .

    If he's sliding through , you back out and try to get inside him .
    Charles had that option , it's true , but the best option against a guy under control is to try to compromise your competitor's line by keeping him tighter into the corner .

    And , by the way , I would have been happy to see the wheel banging if it left both cars on track .
    I think the thought process was different between Lewis and Charles because in Canada there was a wall to be squeezed into and Lewis wasnít going to risk that whereas in Austria it was worth the risk staying on the outside as there was a nice big run-off area. LeClerc made the mistake of assuming he could crash knowing or thinking the rules were on his side but the incident was judged differently. Verstappen is ruthless much like champions like Schumacher, Vettel, Rosberg, Hamilton etc who have all squeezed opponents off the track and put them in positions where they can make the decision to crash if not. Sometimes that mentality works and other times it falls foul of the stewards.

    I think the sport needs some on track drama at the moment as itís in a sorry state. It wouldnít have bothered me if Verstappen had be penalised to be honest, I was just glad we saw a race where Mercedes didnít win.


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  9. Likes: Bagwan (3rd July 2019)
  10. #66
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    Quote Originally Posted by henners88 View Post
    I think the thought process was different between Lewis and Charles because in Canada there was a wall to be squeezed into and Lewis wasn’t going to risk that whereas in Austria it was worth the risk staying on the outside as there was a nice big run-off area. LeClerc made the mistake of assuming he could crash knowing or thinking the rules were on his side but the incident was judged differently. Verstappen is ruthless much like champions like Schumacher, Vettel, Rosberg, Hamilton etc who have all squeezed opponents off the track and put them in positions where they can make the decision to crash if not. Sometimes that mentality works and other times it falls foul of the stewards.

    I think the sport needs some on track drama at the moment as it’s in a sorry state. It wouldn’t have bothered me if Verstappen had be penalised to be honest, I was just glad we saw a race where Mercedes didn’t win.


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    Well , my friend , we are much closer to being in total agreement than I had previously thought .
    You're absolutely right that the series needs some drama .
    It's these incidents that draw people back to sites like this .
    It's these debates that make it fun , although sometimes a little frustrating .

    This incident seemed pretty clear to me , whereas the Hamilton one had a little more nuance to it .
    Hamilton was never fully alongside Vettel in Canada , but it was judged as him having been forced off , and , fair enough . He had been forced off .

    The issue I see with the two different scenarios comes from finding an out of control opponent compared to an in control one on the inside .
    When they deemed that Vettel had regained control , stating he had looked in his mirrors before moving towards the wall , they used it to determine it was deliberate , and thus worthy of penalty .

    They said Max had not looked over at Charles , and thus , since he didn't see him coming , he was not guilty of forcing him off track .
    But , he was never out of control .
    Whilst Charles was going for a move to squeeze Max inward , and tighter , Max deliberately took a line which left no room for a guy right beside him .

    And , I believe that since he was even with him , Charles likely would have done the same thing even if there was a wall there .
    But , with a wall there , I believe Max would have acted very differently , as his car would have been far more at risk .


    I don't really care if Merc wins , actually , but I want to see them have to work harder to pull it off .

  11. Likes: henners88 (3rd July 2019)
  12. #67
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    Max's move was less than smart for two reasons. First, as has been said earlier in this thread, he could have received a penalty for the contact. Second, and more important, any wheel to wheel contact carries risk to both cars. Should there have been damage to his car Max could be kicking himself as Bottas took an undeserved win from him. He reminds me a lot of (over here in NA) Paul Tracy in his younger days - fast but reckless. Perhaps he will mature with time.
    "Old roats am jake mit goats."
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  13. Likes: airshifter (5th July 2019),Tazio (4th July 2019)
  14. #68
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    The sad thing is the focus on the overtake has overshadowed the fact Honda power won a race in F1 too.


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  15. Likes: airshifter (5th July 2019)
  16. #69
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    Remember the famous incident between Pastor Maldonado and Lewis Hamilton at European GP 2012? Pastor Maldonado was given a penalty for the collision caused by unsafe reentry. However, I always thought that Lewis shouldn't have pushed Maldonado off the race track the way he did to begin with. However, it does seem like the stewards are consistent in the way that neither Hamilton nor Verstappen got a penalty for this. Check this video:

    https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=LJe7GI9C7vU

  17. #70
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    I'm going to have a go at that.

    Hamilton is leading. He's on the inside. He's turning as normal into that corner, making the apex. He had no obligation to Maldonado as he was doing nothing out of the ordinary.

    Maldonado was attempting a move on the outside. He had been momentarily ahead. but nothing definitive or with authority. There was no reasonable opportunity to pass Hamilton exiting the corner. He drove off the track and rejoined without consideration.

    Leclerc was ahead. He stayed wide intentionally and didn't do anything to unfairly impede Verstappen.

    Verstappen braked particularly later than normal. This act was not in the normal course of events. He had not attempted to make the apex of the kerb, and had done so to intentionally impede Leclerc. He hadn't had control of the inertia of his car or consideration for Leclerc.

    Maldonado was belligerent. Verstappen was negligent.

    Or maybe it's the other way around?
    Last edited by journeyman racer; 4th July 2019 at 13:32.

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