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  1. #71
    Senior Member Duncan's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Zico View Post
    What about the penalty? For me it was the anti-racing, it robbed us of an exciting finale to the race. Cant help but feel that ordering Vettel to let Hamilton through would have been a far far superior decision.
    Instead of Lewis just following him home within the 5 sec window... it would have given Seb the chance to come back at Lewis and it wouldnt have totally ruined the race.
    I think that's what we need: the stewards need to have a sanction that will be immediately effected on-track (like giving up a position). The problem with time penalties is that if they're late in the race, the final order isn't going to be the order in which everybody passes the line, which I think is the root of all of the upset here.

    To work, this would need to be something that the stewards decide on very quickly (like within one lap of the incident or something) and need to be effected by the driver within some short period, like a lap or two, or be converted automatically into a greater time penalty. You'd also need a requirement that DRS be disabled for the penalized driver for a lap or so, otherwise they'd just game the system by timing the switch to right before the detection zone.

    Fair play to Lewis here, though; he could have just backed off and held the gap to less than 5 seconds, but he instead pushed aggressively to try to reel Vettel in and tried to win it on track.

  2. #72
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    Quote Originally Posted by Bagwan View Post
    Good debate TBK .
    "still recovering from your incident" is what's important here .
    He insists he was .

    But the stewards seem to think he had full control , and the knowledge that Ham was there , hoping to come through .
    Hamilton was set up perfectly , had there been space .
    But he backed out of it , very wisely , with Seb careening across the track , as the gap was closing .

    Simple physics tells us that it was only then that Seb moved across that white line , as they didn't touch .


    Now , if I could , I'd like to touch on the drivers' reactions .
    First , we all saw how pissed Seb was . That would be a normal thing , even if he was completely at fault , as drivers in general , and Seb in particular are often petulant turds in these situations .

    However , Hamilton wasn't ranting at all about almost being put in the wall , and that's not normal at all .
    His moving Seb onto the top step more than suggests he doesn't agree with the German being sanctioned .
    His reaction plays to the thought that Seb was still recovering , and he would have had the best seat in the house to see the lurid slide Seb had as he came off the curbing , and thus , dabbed the brakes .


    I think we pretty close in our opinions here , as I'd totally agree with you , had the incident occurred on a very slightly wider piece of track .

    Note also , that you are agreeing with the stewards here . Doesn't that make you just a little bit nervous ? hee hee .
    Agree we are close on opinion but the crux of the issue really is that Vettel straightened the wheel while looking in his mirrors at an angle that cut off Hamilton. That’s ultimately why he got a penalty and I can’t disagree with it. Maybe Hamilton would have done the same and maybe he also would have also received a penalty, it doesn’t matter really, what matters is whether a rule was broken. And Hamilton certain wasn’t too apologetic speaking to the press, his opinion was that he would have done the same but also that he had an obstacle on track. Ultimately Seb bottled under pressure from Hamilton and we should not lose sight of that. I remember Valentino Rossi getting a 10 second timed penalty MotoGP and he got his head down and built the gap of 10 seconds to second place and won the race anyway. That's what Vettel should have done.

    Yes, for once I agree with the stewards although there have been many occasions I haven’t😆 I think there needs to be greater transparency from the Stewards on why they take certain decisions. They have more angles than we do and more information. I think their explanation for the penalty is pretty airtight and Vettel can’t complain too much about it.

    I like the idea floated here of a position swap but it would still take time for the Stewards to arrive at that conclusion.
    Last edited by The Black Knight; 11th June 2019 at 07:59.

  3. #73
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    Quote Originally Posted by Duncan View Post
    I think that's what we need: the stewards need to have a sanction that will be immediately effected on-track (like giving up a position). The problem with time penalties is that if they're late in the race, the final order isn't going to be the order in which everybody passes the line, which I think is the root of all of the upset here.

    To work, this would need to be something that the stewards decide on very quickly (like within one lap of the incident or something) and need to be effected by the driver within some short period, like a lap or two, or be converted automatically into a greater time penalty. You'd also need a requirement that DRS be disabled for the penalized driver for a lap or so, otherwise they'd just game the system by timing the switch to right before the detection zone.

    Fair play to Lewis here, though; he could have just backed off and held the gap to less than 5 seconds, but he instead pushed aggressively to try to reel Vettel in and tried to win it on track.
    Or if he didn’t agree with the penalty he could have let Seb build the gap to 5 secs and let him win 🤣 of course he couldn’t actually do that as so many people rely on him in Mercedes to get the win but it’s a different spin

  4. #74
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    Great decision by the stewards. They were like some football referees that think they don't get enough spotlight and make sure they get all the attention. I suppose that from now on when a driver makes a mistake and disturbs the other delicate genius behind him it's all done and dusted. As some have pointed out, the penalty is also quite perverse. In a situation like this one, the penalized driver can't even make up for his mistake. When they handed out this retarded penalty, they decided who wins 80% or something into the race.

    One reason I like F1 so little nowadays is because of these two. I don't really care if any of them wins. Vettel just showed everybody what a petulant spoilt brat he is. He really knows how to take it with dignity. And Hamilton, oh Hamilton, what a gentleman, what a sportsman, no? He took the gift with so much dignity and even offered some empty gestures... but when it all happened he bitched and moaned instantly over the radio. But our beloved tattooed gentleman with 10 earrings and douchebag hairdo didn't want to win like this. There's a huge chasm between who this guy pretends to be and who he really is.

  5. #75
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    Since when did TBK care what Rosberg thought?

    Quote Originally Posted by Nitrodaze View Post
    I can't argue with your views here. That really was the sentiment this weekend. The penalty raised the question, "why is Vettel not allow to fight for his position advantage, once he was back on track?", "Why should he hand the advantage to Hamilton or make it easier for Hamilton to overtake him?".

    The scene that was offensive was clearly hard racing and ought not be punishable. No real F1 fan would expect anything less. The thing was that Vettel squeezed just the right amount and well within safe parameters. Certainly enough for the situation to be within Hamilton's capability to deal with it and make a correction in time to avoid a collision. These are two of the most successful racing drivers of the current era? Surely theyy can be given a discretionary benefit of the doubt that such a move is well within the skills and capability of either driver to handle. This was not a Rosberg type squeeze of Barcelona 2016 that end with a crash.
    I'm going to have a go at this. As I agree with such a penalty, but empathise with Vettel because penalty enforcement seems to be a lottery.

    Like Hamilton at Monaco in 16, and Schumacher in Adelaide. Vettel created what otherwise would've been yellow flag moment. If they do that, then they should stay out of the way til they get up to normal speed.

    They didn't, and in the process had disrupted the momentum of other drivers. They should've got done over.

    The lead car typically has right of way, but they have to be going at a "normal speed".

  6. #76
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    Quote Originally Posted by Duncan View Post
    I think that's what we need: the stewards need to have a sanction that will be immediately effected on-track (like giving up a position). The problem with time penalties is that if they're late in the race, the final order isn't going to be the order in which everybody passes the line, which I think is the root of all of the upset here.

    To work, this would need to be something that the stewards decide on very quickly (like within one lap of the incident or something) and need to be effected by the driver within some short period, like a lap or two, or be converted automatically into a greater time penalty. You'd also need a requirement that DRS be disabled for the penalized driver for a lap or so, otherwise they'd just game the system by timing the switch to right before the detection zone.

    Fair play to Lewis here, though; he could have just backed off and held the gap to less than 5 seconds, but he instead pushed aggressively to try to reel Vettel in and tried to win it on track.
    I agree that the stewards need to be timely with their decisions. They obviously need to improve how they prioritize their deliberation of incidents that occur in a race. i doubt they would be able to come up with a fair decision within a lap, as it take time to gather the video evidence. I think within two laps and no more than 3 laps, might be feasible.

    I wonder if giving up a position is better than getting a five seconds penalty. At least with a 5 sec penalty, he has a chance to try to put a 5 sec gap between himself and Hamilton. That said, Vettel with a one place drop penalty, may have had a great opportunity to pass Hamilton to regain the lead. However, this would be unlikely on narrower tracks with lots of slow corners like Monaco for instance.

    I personally would go with Jenson Button on this one. It should be discretionary based on circumstances and experience of the drivers involved. Hard racing like this where the pursuer was forced to slow down in a manner that does not put the safety of both drivers at risk should be given the benefit of the doubt. Otherwise, the penalty should be applied where both drivers have been placed at serious risk of the occurrence of an avoidable accident. In this instance, l would prefer a 5 sec penalty to a place drop, as the options are better and subject to the ability of the driver and/or car. It is also more exciting, as the driver, not only has to worry about the car right behind him, he must think of other cars behind him on track who are within that 5 sec window.
    Last edited by Nitrodaze; 11th June 2019 at 14:05.
    Better a witty fool than a foolish wit.
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  7. #77
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    I think the quality of points on both sides of this debate shows the difficulty the stewards faced , and highlights the 5 second penalty as , perhaps the best solution , in a way .

    As I understand it , there is currently no way to contest this result , as it stands in the rules .
    But , if there were , and Seb was to be found "not guilty"of the charge , the time penalty could be easily lifted .
    With any change of position mandated during the race , this would not be possible .

    Given that we are still debating here , and all seemingly coming up with well-reasoned points of view , some thought should be given to having the teams be able to appeal the result .

  8. #78
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    Quote Originally Posted by Bagwan View Post
    I think the quality of points on both sides of this debate shows the difficulty the stewards faced , and highlights the 5 second penalty as , perhaps the best solution , in a way .

    As I understand it , there is currently no way to contest this result , as it stands in the rules .
    But , if there were , and Seb was to be found "not guilty"of the charge , the time penalty could be easily lifted .
    With any change of position mandated during the race , this would not be possible .

    Given that we are still debating here , and all seemingly coming up with well-reasoned points of view , some thought should be given to having the teams be able to appeal the result .
    I don't think the current rule prevents Ferrari from appealing the decision of the stewards. Ferrari has initially indicated the intention of appealling. After heads has cooled, l would be quite surprised if they follow through with it. The stewards were flawless on this matter. The rules however, may need tweeking to allow the stewards to apply discretion.

    The problem with discretion is it introduces an increase in inconsistency. If we take this on going discussion for example, we notice how varied the views are on the matter. The same would apply to the various stewards that would be occasioned to make a decision on these infractions. What l am getting at is that there is no easy answer for this situation. Sometimes, we just have to swallow a bitter pill such as this one. It is life, sometimes it is fair, other times it can be darn hard on us.
    Last edited by Nitrodaze; 11th June 2019 at 16:31.
    Better a witty fool than a foolish wit.
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  9. #79
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    Ross Brawn agrees that there needs to be more transparency over Stewards decisions on whether to penalise a driver or not:

    https://www.autosport.com/f1/news/14...nalties-better

    Have to agree a move like this is badly needed as fans don’t have enough information to understand wholly the decisions. Plus having such a process in place would force better more accurately penalties and an overall better standard of officiating lest there be a total fan backlash.

  10. #80
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    Quote Originally Posted by Nitrodaze View Post
    I don't think the current rule prevents Ferrari from appealing the decision of the stewards. Ferrari has initially indicated the intention of appealling. After heads has cooled, l would be quite surprised if they follow through with it. The stewards were flawless on this matter. The rules however, may need tweeking to allow the stewards to apply discretion.

    The problem with discretion is it introduces an increase in inconsistency. If we take this on going discussion for example, we notice how varied the views are on the matter. The same would apply to the various stewards that would be occasioned to make a decision on these infractions. What l am getting at is that there is no easy answer for this situation. Sometimes, we just have to swallow a bitter pill such as this one. It is life, sometimes it is fair, other times it can be darn hard on us.
    Ferrari can’t appeal the Stewards decision and conclusion of the incident (article 38.3) they can only appeal the Stewards decision to investigate the incident in the first place (38.1)

    https://www.fia.com/file/78014/download/26183

    The stewards may impose any one of the penalties below on any driver involved in an Incident :
    a) A five second time penalty. The driver must enter the pit lane, stop in his pit stop position for at least five seconds and then re‐join the race. The relevant driver may however elect not to stop, provided he carries out no further pit stop before the end of the race. In such cases five seconds will be added to the elapsed race time of the driver concerned.
    b) A ten second time penalty. The driver must enter the pit lane, stop in his pit stop position for at least ten seconds and then re‐join the race. The relevant driver may however elect not to stop, provided he carries out no further pit stop before the end of the race. In such cases ten seconds will be added to the elapsed race time of the driver concerned.
    In both of the above cases the driver concerned must carry out the penalty the next time he enters the pit lane and, for the avoidance of doubt, this includes any stop the driver makes whilst a VSC or safety car procedure is in use.
    c) A drive‐through penalty. The driver must enter the pit lane and re‐join the race without stopping.
    d) A ten second stop‐and‐go time penalty. The driver must enter the pit lane, stop in his pit stop position for at least ten seconds and then re‐join the race.
    If any of the four penalties above are imposed upon a driver, and that driver is unable to serve the penalty due to retirement from the race, the stewards may impose a grid place penalty on the driver at his next Event.
    If any of the four penalties above are imposed during the last three laps, or after the end of a race, Article 38.4(b) below will not apply and five seconds will be added to the elapsed race time of the driver concerned in the case of (a) above, 10 seconds in the case of (b), 20 seconds in the case of (c) and 30 seconds in the case of (d).
    e) A time penalty.
    f) A reprimand.
    g) A drop of any number of grid positions at the driver’s next Event.
    If any of the seven penalties above are imposed they shall not be subject to appeal.
    h) Disqualification from the results.
    i) Suspension from the driver’s next Event.
    I don’t think they have a hope as the Stewards can essentially investigate what they want.
    Last edited by The Black Knight; 11th June 2019 at 16:53.

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