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  1. #21
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    Quote Originally Posted by GravelBen View Post
    Gives advantage to drivers who can memorise a short stage really well rather than those who can read the road well the first time though. Less rally and more rallysprint, isn't there enough repeating the same stages in WRC already? I'd rather see more new stages than see who has memorised an old stage best after driving it 50 times in their career.

    Road order advantage/disadvantage usually seems to balance out reasonably even over a season and often depends more on weather than anything else, where is the unfairness there? Is it just because certain drivers whinge whenever it doesn't give them an advantage?
    In some rallies (like sweden and turkey and some other) are really unfair for first cars on the road. Winning in Monte Carlo = having no chance in sweden due to road order.

    There is no perfect solution for road order problem. Adding 20 km long qualifying stage to gravel rally still makes it unfair for first 3-4 cars on the road , (and unfair for last cars on tarmac) stage). Shakedown qualifying is in my mind the best solution for the current dilemma.
    2nd Option is to make a power stage like qualifying stage (still quite short) on tarmac and do it just after shakedown.

  2. #22
    Senior Member GravelBen's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by able1 View Post
    In some rallies (like sweden and turkey and some other) are really unfair for first cars on the road. Winning in Monte Carlo = having no chance in sweden due to road order.
    Some years with less snow first on the road has been an advantage for Sweden, with later cars losing studs in the gravel after digging through the snow. This year they had a big dump of fresh snow right before the rally and it was a disadvantage. The variable isn't the road position, its the weather conditions.

    Similar thing - usually a late road position is good for Sardegna, this year the friday was a mudbath making later cars very slow and then giving them a bad road position for the saturday because it dried out.

    Poland a few years ago nobody after about 4th on the road could get anywhere close to the starters because they were fighting through 300mm deep ruts dug by the first cars.

    You can single out individual rallies to show an advantage either way, but it usually averages out over a season - they get advantage on some rallies and disadvantage on others. What some people seem to want is for the fastest drivers to get reshuffled into an advantageous position for every rally (which sometimes can't even be decided until the rally starts), making the competition less close.

  3. Likes: AnttiL (13th December 2018),cali (13th December 2018),Lead (13th December 2018),pantealex (13th December 2018)
  4. #23
    Senior Member Rally Power's Avatar
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    Talking about shorter events makes sense, once Ciesla already mention it as a way to get more events into the calendar; but what do people think about the calendar expansion: Is it worthy for the sport? Will it stop on the 14 events? How would the ideal championship look like? Besides shorter events, what other ways could be found to balance the promoter expansion ambitions and manus raising costs?
    Rally addict since 1982

  5. #24
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    Officials

    As an official in Australia, we currently put in 12 hour+ days. If you add an extra loop on the Saturday, I think that would be just too much.



    Quote Originally Posted by AnttiL View Post
    We had a bit of discussion about this in the Citroen thread but let's move the discussion over here

    The point was that Ogier suggested that rallies should be shortened to two days (of course, Ogier wants more time with his family) but keeping the stage kilometres at 300 where they are now. This could be doable, by having tighter and longer days of rallying, and like Ogier says, this would increase the endurance element slightly.

    My suggestion would be to attempt something like this, to cut one day of the rally week.

    FRIDAY
    Morning - Shakedown
    Afternoon - Ceremonial start
    Evening - Opening super special, one loop of stages

    SATURDAY
    Three loops of stages instead of two.

    SUNDAY
    As it is now.

    This way we would simply move half of the Friday stage kilometres onto Saturday. Of course, this would lead into problems like repeated stages would have to be driven on two different days or then implement something like in Finland 2017 where you repeat a stage within a loop instead of over two loops (ie you drive 2-3 stages once, then do them again before going service). Timetable-wise there's also a challenge to cram that many stages into one day, but that would maybe put more emphasis on longer stages, as they are more efficient time-wise (ie it's quicker to drive a 45 km stage than three 15 km stages). This plan would also keep the opening super special on the evening and the ending of the rally on Sunday afternoon, and in addition all the action would happen on the weekend. For team members and spectators it would be one day less of traveling but with the same amount of action available.

    How should WRC rallies evolve over the next years? (yeah, we know everyone wants 1000 km events with no repeated stages and overnight driving and return of old Safari etc but let's try to be realistic).

  6. Likes: GravelBen (14th December 2018),racerx1979 (14th December 2018)
  7. #25
    Senior Member AnttiL's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Farbar1 View Post
    As an official in Australia, we currently put in 12 hour+ days. If you add an extra loop on the Saturday, I think that would be just too much.
    Would just need some rearranging.

  8. #26
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    Unfortunately that might prove a little difficult. They can be very long days and if you start looking at 2 shifts, you may need many more officials. In any case Ogier was on his way back to Europe on the Sunday night this year.

  9. #27
    Senior Member AnttiL's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Farbar1 View Post
    Unfortunately that might prove a little difficult. They can be very long days and if you start looking at 2 shifts, you may need many more officials. In any case Ogier was on his way back to Europe on the Sunday night this year.
    In this example Friday would be shorter, so the officials who didn't work on Friday morning could work the extra Saturday shift? But yeah, I admit I don't know how this would be done in practice and I already tried to make an example schedule for Rally Finland (whose route, stages and distances I know quite well) and noticed it's pretty tricky to squeeze that many kilometres into one Saturday.

  10. Likes: pantealex (14th December 2018)
  11. #28
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    Quote Originally Posted by GravelBen View Post
    I'd rather see more new stages than see who has memorised an old stage best after driving it 50 times in their career.
    With all live everyone can memorize stages and they don't even have to drive it. But you have a point. Same old stages every year by year is a little boring. Even rallies are a bit the same. Couple of them could rotate so that could fire things up.

  12. #29
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    With all live you don`t see new stages, when they are first introduced.

  13. #30
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    Quote Originally Posted by able1 View Post
    In some rallies (like sweden and turkey and some other) are really unfair for first cars on the road. Winning in Monte Carlo = having no chance in sweden due to road order.
    GravelBen have already touched the subject, but over the last years (since VW got involved and Ogier started complaining), the only year where it has been a disadvantage running first in Sweden was 2018, in a majority of these years it's been an advantage going early, not only due to the later cars losing more studs, but on icy surface without loose snow on top, you rip up icedust, that will be sprinkled on top of the surface, making it more slippery for the late starters.

  14. Likes: AnttiL (14th December 2018),pantealex (14th December 2018)

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