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  1. #11
    Senior Member Rallyper's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by tommeke_B View Post
    I've never ever heard a driver or co-driver say that... In fact I heard the opposite, that it's not because you're fast in a FWD car, you will be also quick in a 4WD car...
    Two different things.

    Learning to handle a rallycar, you need to do a lot of practising. Best way is to do competiton in village events. Learning to handle can (should) be made in 2WD cars in the beginning. RWD and FWD doesn´t matter much. If you have talent and before you step up to 4WD the best way is always doing FWD for a while.
    "Reis vas pät pat kaar vas kut"
    Tommi Mäkinen, back in the years...

  2. Likes: pantealex (3rd December 2018)
  3. #12
    Armchair General Mirek's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Franky View Post
    Had another thought. If there would only be the three classes (R2, R5 and WRC) at international events, then not to lose the lazy development of R4 and the growing number of protos, maybe a class that would be called like 'Amateur' or sth and would have more loose rules for those who would like to build the 4WD car themselves? No separate championship or title for it tho.
    It actually already partially works. If I'm not mistaken the regionally homologated Maxi cars from South America, New Zealand or Australia are allowed in WRC events. This rule for the moment applies only for events outside of Europe. If it works there it must work in Europe too.
    Stupid is as stupid does. Forrest Gump

  4. Likes: pantealex (3rd December 2018)
  5. #13
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    Quote Originally Posted by Mirek View Post
    It actually already partially works. If I'm not mistaken the regionally homologated Maxi cars from South America, New Zealand or Australia are allowed in WRC events. This rule for the moment applies only for events outside of Europe. If it works there it must work in Europe too.
    Pretty sure it's allowed in Europe too, there were several N5 cars running in WRC Spain.


    To me, R3 has become redundant whilst R2 is healthy. If there's a need for a more powerful 2WD category, then RGT is it IMO. If there's a need for a less powerful 4WD category, then NR4 and R4 should be it; we'll see what happens there.
    aka Rodger Davies

  6. Likes: pantealex (4th December 2018)
  7. #14
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    Each WRC event can decide which national cars they take, RallyFinland had list of accepted cars (old N and S2000 for 2018 event)
    "quattro best 4wd rallycar ever"

  8. #15
    Senior Member Rally Power's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by pantealex View Post
    Answer from Riku Tahko when discussion was used R5 has same price than new R4

    "Price is around that but if you count together some of the universal parts in motorsport like transmission, electrics, suspension and engine you can really (most cars use same suppliers) you can't go much cheaper than when building a modern rally car."

    Some people here in forum just doesn´t understand that certain components have about same price, no matter which car you built.
    When you use standard parts, your car will not last.
    It just isn´t possible to do cheap reliable car.
    R4 main components (transmission, suspension, brakes, steering, etc)* are rally purposed built, just like in R5. The bigger difference is on the engine, which it’s closer to stock specs than in R5 (although it uses the same block from DS3/208 R5’s). Besides a more basic engine, the price difference between a R4 and a R5 is mainly due to the fact that it’s built by affordable private tuners, instead of overpriced manus competition departments; this will also mean less expensive rebuilds over the seasons.

    Somehow, R4 is a sort of R5 Light that could become a more reasonable alternative to old Evo’s and Impreza’s than used R5’s. Unfortunately, the FIA and Oreca are failing to give R4 a proper promotion.

    *https://www.oreca.com/en/manufacturer/fia-r4-kit/
    Rally addict since 1982

  9. #16
    Armchair General Mirek's Avatar
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    How do You define that something is overpriced?

    The hardest struggle in R5 development is to follow the price caps defined for number of certain parts and the complete car as a whole. Selling R5 cars alone really isn't any gold mine. The profit comes mostly from after-sale service but the car as it is built is not something overpriced. It's high performance product made of high performance parts and its price is corresponding.
    Last edited by Mirek; 4th December 2018 at 15:41.
    Stupid is as stupid does. Forrest Gump

  10. Likes: br21 (4th December 2018)
  11. #17
    Senior Member Rally Power's Avatar
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    Yep, I know you can't admit any critic on R5 (probably, the 8th wonder of the world) but asking over 250k for a not that complex 4wd rally car is overpriced, no matter who builds it.

    Anyway, the point here is that R4 (which technically isn't that far from R5) is now a less expensive option for privateers; it's up to the FIA, Oreca and its partners to give R4 a push, as it deserves.
    Rally addict since 1982

  12. #18
    Armchair General Mirek's Avatar
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    The full spec. Fabia costs around 230 thousand (base car costs 190 thousand). That's a real price and it's not much more than of the R4 (the top S2000 in their days costed 100 thousand more). Such price is fully corresponding with what they are built from. There is no alternative design available anywhere which would be reasonably cheaper and allowed similar performance, reliability and serviceability.

    Of course R5 isn't any 8th wonder of the world but it's something which absolutely does work and which is very successful both in sporting and economical point of view - unlike far majority of other FIA-defined cars. Give Mr. Goldstein & co. some credit for creating the best set of rules we have seen in several decades.
    Stupid is as stupid does. Forrest Gump

  13. Likes: br21 (4th December 2018),dupanton (5th December 2018),m-ast (4th December 2018)
  14. #19
    Senior Member Rally Power's Avatar
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    I don't need to give any extra credit as I've always praised R5, with just one exception: its price.

    Anyway, if that Fabia value is correct, it's still 70 to 80k more than R4 expected prices. That's a lot for a privateer. Once R4 are also cheaper to maintain (no need for factory expensive rebuilds) why can't we have both offers, once they're not even direct competitors? Yours 'R5 or nothing' view is really hard to understand.
    Rally addict since 1982

  15. #20
    Armchair General Mirek's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Rally Power View Post
    Anyway, if that Fabia value is correct, it's still 70 to 80k more than R4 expected prices.
    Good luck building an R4 for 150 thousand Euro.

    You also tend to compare price of the cheapest possible package on one side and the most expensive package on the other side which makes no sense whatsoever because even the most expensive R4 package shall be slower than the cheapest R5 package and those two cost +/- the same (even omitting still faster second-hand R5).

    Quote Originally Posted by Rally Power View Post
    That's a lot for a privateer. Once R4 are also cheaper to maintain (no need for factory expensive rebuilds) why can't we have both offers, once they're not even direct competitors?
    As I said already before. There is a massive difference between what You can spend for fighting on the overall podium or somewhere in lower class. It doesn't make sense to build a bit cheaper car which can't fight with the a bit more expensive option because it's easier to find money for the more expensive package which brings better results and more media exposure (at least in most countries). You can not operate with a premisse than You can get always the same money from the sponsors regardless Your results in overall standings. You can be a thousand times winner in R3 class but You will most likely never get sponsor money as the ever fifth guy in overall standings.

    And that's exactly why in Europe there is very little interest in R4. There is an option which is faster, proven to be working and reliable and doesn't cost much more. It's really not very rational to invest into some experiments which may save some dozens of thousand Euro but will certainly bring worse results. If we take into account that there are literally tons of second-hand R5 everywhere it makes even less sense.

    Quote Originally Posted by Rally Power View Post
    Yours 'R5 or nothing' view is really hard to understand.
    I have never said R5 only. I don't care if R4 exists because it is a good option for overseas areas with crazy import fee for factory-built cars (as explained by our overseas members before) but I see no reason why I (as a common customer) shall invest into R4 in Europe. The only reason to do so is if Your sponsor is an importer of a brand which doesn't have R5. But such case is driven neither by cost, nor by performance.

    And why I am so active in threads like this? Because some our members keep dreaming about some magical formula which will cost like an R2 car but will basically be an R4.
    Stupid is as stupid does. Forrest Gump

  16. Likes: br21 (4th December 2018),dupanton (5th December 2018),pantealex (5th December 2018)

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