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  1. #21
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    Quote Originally Posted by Nitrodaze View Post
    I think he should have been aiming for 2nd place. Minus the eight points, he should still have been 3rd and in the top three.
    I think he should have been aiming for first. I'm not really a big Bottas fan, but I think all F1 drivers would be aiming for first. I am curious though, why you think Bottas should have been at least third to be respectable, seeing as you've been saying all year that Ferrari have the fastest/best car?

  2. #22
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    Quote Originally Posted by Firstgear View Post
    I think he should have been aiming for first. I'm not really a big Bottas fan, but I think all F1 drivers would be aiming for first. I am curious though, why you think Bottas should have been at least third to be respectable, seeing as you've been saying all year that Ferrari have the fastest/best car?
    My thinking is simple, he should be the first of the drivers out of contention for the title. He should be aiming to be ahead of Kimi and giving Vettel a fight for 2nd place to be a credible Mercedes 2nd driver. That would at least convey an argument that he was good enough to fight for the title if he did not have some bad luck . As it goes, he doesn't remotely look like a championship material but a great support driver. And not so great one if 2018 is anything to go by.

    You have to look at Alonso in a crappy Mclaren to see what a championship material look like. Even with a poor car, he drives as if he is contesting for the title. The same can be said for Ricciado, Verstapenn, Leclerc, Magnussen, Gasly or Ocon. These guys have cars that are not good enough to win the championship but they drive the wheels of those cars like their life depended on it.

    I really cannot say the same for Bottas in the 2nd half of the season. At some races he was just doing enough but not really trying; if he qualified behind Hamilton. We respect drivers that archive more than their circumstance limits them to archive. A reason why Alonso is a legend and highly respected. The same reason why we think Verstapenn is a potential world champion.
    Last edited by Nitrodaze; 27th November 2018 at 15:19.
    Better a witty fool than a foolish wit.
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  3. #23
    Senior Member N. Jones's Avatar
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    I think Valterri is just a beaten man after having Hamilton as a teammate these past few years. As Nico said on the Sky broadcast, Bottas needs to find a way to get back in the game mentally and fight Hamilton next season.
    " Lady - I'm in an awful dilemma.
    Moe - Yeah, I never cared much for these foreign cars either."

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  5. #24
    Senior Member truefan72's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Nitrodaze View Post
    My thinking is simple, he should be the first of the drivers out of contention for the title. He should be aiming to be ahead of Kimi and giving Vettel a fight for 2nd place to be a credible Mercedes 2nd driver. That would at least convey an argument that he was good enough to fight for the title if he did not have some bad luck . As it goes, he doesn't remotely look like a championship material but a great support driver. And not so great one if 2018 is anything to go by.

    You have to look at Alonso in a crappy Mclaren to see what a championship material look like. Even with a poor car, he drives as if he is contesting for the title. The same can be said for Ricciado, Verstapenn, Leclerc, Magnussen, Gasly or Ocon. These guys have cars that are not good enough to win the championship but they drive the wheels of those cars like their life depended on it.

    I really cannot say the same for Bottas in the 2nd half of the season. At some races he was just doing enough but not really trying; if he qualified behind Hamilton. We respect drivers that archive more than their circumstance limits them to archive. A reason why Alonso is a legend and highly respected. The same reason why we think Verstappen is a potential world champion.
    agreed.

    Bad luck is part of F1 unfortunately.
    Hamilton had is share in 2016 and still finished a close 2nd. He showed fight
    Vettel had his share along with some mistakes in 2018 and he still showed fight after to finish 2nd

    Bottas, in comparison had 2 cases of bad luck (Baku and France) and 1 team order (Sochi), in which (let's be honest) Hamilton would have probably overtaken him anyway
    The notion that he was unlucky in 2018 is overblown in my book. Ricciardo...that is bad luck!

    what was more evident was his lack of pace or fight. In most of the races he simply was not up to speed in a car that if driven aggresively and deftly, was a potential race winner in almost every race.
    Even if he qualified well, he usually losses spots the race or get's passed. That is unacceptable. Everyone was like "Now that the championship is won, we will probably see a bottas charge to race wins". Instead Hamilton took both Brazil and Abu Dahbi in dominant fashion, Quali and Race, to finish the season with 11 wins and a dominant WDC.

    I have a new found respect for Rosberg, and honestly feel that Mercedes committed to Bottas too early in the season.
    In hindsight, they probably would have placed Ocon in that 2nd drive.
    Even if he wasn't going to beat Hamilton outright, He would have provided a bit stiffer competition and more importantly offered a more serious challenge to the Ferrari's and RBR's
    you can't argue with results

  6. #25
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    Quote Originally Posted by Nitrodaze View Post
    My thinking is simple, he should be the first of the drivers out of contention for the title. He should be aiming to be ahead of Kimi and giving Vettel a fight for 2nd place to be a credible Mercedes 2nd driver. That would at least convey an argument that he was good enough to fight for the title if he did not have some bad luck . As it goes, he doesn't remotely look like a championship material but a great support driver. And not so great one if 2018 is anything to go by.

    You have to look at Alonso in a crappy Mclaren to see what a championship material look like. Even with a poor car, he drives as if he is contesting for the title. The same can be said for Ricciado, Verstapenn, Leclerc, Magnussen, Gasly or Ocon. These guys have cars that are not good enough to win the championship but they drive the wheels of those cars like their life depended on it.

    I really cannot say the same for Bottas in the 2nd half of the season. At some races he was just doing enough but not really trying; if he qualified behind Hamilton. We respect drivers that archive more than their circumstance limits them to archive. A reason why Alonso is a legend and highly respected. The same reason why we think Verstapenn is a potential world champion.
    I think Hamilton has driven better this season than any other. Would you agree? If so, why do you think that is? Do you think he would've driven just as well with Alonso or Verstappen or Ocon as a team mate?
    Mercedes do not need Bottas to be right there with Hamilton - rubbing shoulders (or wheels as Rosberg sometimes did). They also don't need a team mate that will take Hamilton out of his game mentally. At the beginning of the season Mercedes would of had one goal, that being 2 titles. For that they need Hamilton at 100% with no team mate interfering in any way, and someone else (like Bottas) who is quick enough to secure the WCC but not so big headed that he interferes with Hamilton.
    I'd speculate, that if you'd put Alonso or Verstappen or Ocon beside Hamilton, there would be enough in-team fighting and on track clashes that there would be a significant loss of points for Mercedes. This would result in less pressure for Vettel, making him less desperate and less likely to make the mistakes he made throughout the season. Maybe even enough of a difference for the title.
    Two super, ultra, hyper Alpha males are not the way you win titles.

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  8. #26
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    Quote Originally Posted by Firstgear View Post
    I think Hamilton has driven better this season than any other. Would you agree? If so, why do you think that is? Do you think he would've driven just as well with Alonso or Verstappen or Ocon as a team mate?
    Mercedes do not need Bottas to be right there with Hamilton - rubbing shoulders (or wheels as Rosberg sometimes did). They also don't need a team mate that will take Hamilton out of his game mentally. At the beginning of the season Mercedes would of had one goal, that being 2 titles. For that they need Hamilton at 100% with no team mate interfering in any way, and someone else (like Bottas) who is quick enough to secure the WCC but not so big headed that he interferes with Hamilton.
    I'd speculate, that if you'd put Alonso or Verstappen or Ocon beside Hamilton, there would be enough in-team fighting and on track clashes that there would be a significant loss of points for Mercedes. This would result in less pressure for Vettel, making him less desperate and less likely to make the mistakes he made throughout the season. Maybe even enough of a difference for the title.
    Two super, ultra, hyper Alpha males are not the way you win titles.
    I see your point but l don't fully agree. I think Hamilton would relish the fight and it would make for a great spectacle. To be fair, Bottas did show some spunk in the first half of the season where he was able to get the most out of the troubled Mercedes car than Hamilton, out qualifying Hamilton most to the time. Any team want two drivers that can race each other hard respectfully in such a way that the racing do not result in loss of constructors points.

    The ideal pairing was Hamilton and Rosberg without the personal vendetta element. By this l mean, if one driver is unable to win, the other should be good enough to take the win if the car is capable of producing a win on the occasion. When the one driver earns enough point to establish themselves as the clear option to take the fight to the opposition, then the other must be fast enough to finish second and not lower than third. It would be particularly sweet for the team if their drivers finish first and second in the drivers championship to demonstrate that they have the best driver pairing in the paddock.

    When Bottas joined Mercedes, the benchmark for him was to match Roberg. If he could do that then we would say that he would win championships if Hamilton is not on his game. As it stand, l don't think anyone can say that Bottas can win championships in a Mercedes even if Hamilton was not driving the Mercedes.

    He is not a thoroughbred, hence other drivers don't have the track respect for him that they had for Rosberg. That is because those drivers like Vettel, Verstapenn and Ricciado think they can win the driver's title given the car Bottas was driving. Of course they have to beat Hamilton to have such a chance. But anyone who knows anything about racing would say without a doubt that any of these three drivers have a higher chance of winning the driver's title in the Mercedes, if paired with Bottas.
    Last edited by Nitrodaze; 28th November 2018 at 11:33.
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  9. #27
    Senior Member journeyman racer's Avatar
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    Everyone's a psychoanalyst. Bottas in a beaten man? I don't think so. We don't know what happens behind the scenes. It seems his races are most compromised.

    If Bottas beat Hamilton in the wdc - Everyone would scream that MB were favouring Bottas.

    If Bottas finished behind but within range of Hamilton in the wdc and behind Vettel - Everyone screams that MB should use Bottas to help Hamilton.

    Bottas finishes miles behind Hamilton - Everyone screams he's not good enough and he should received the death penalty. Put in a dope like Ocon, a touring car driver racing in F1.


    As it turns out, enforcing team orders in Russia didn't help Hamliton win the wdc. but it did cost Bottas 3rd.

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  11. #28
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    Quote Originally Posted by journeyman racer View Post
    Everyone's a psychoanalyst. Bottas in a beaten man? I don't think so. We don't know what happens behind the scenes. It seems his races are most compromised.

    If Bottas beat Hamilton in the wdc - Everyone would scream that MB were favouring Bottas.

    If Bottas finished behind but within range of Hamilton in the wdc and behind Vettel - Everyone screams that MB should use Bottas to help Hamilton.

    Bottas finishes miles behind Hamilton - Everyone screams he's not good enough and he should received the death penalty. Put in a dope like Ocon, a touring car driver racing in F1.


    As it turns out, enforcing team orders in Russia didn't help Hamliton win the wdc. but it did cost Bottas 3rd.
    Agreed.

    (That's better. That random F1 stats thing is ponderous. )
    "Those were the days my friends. We thought they'd never end..." jimclark

  12. #29
    Senior Member N. Jones's Avatar
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    Nitrodaze -

    Gotta disagree with you here. Two drivers fighting for the title in the same team causes issues that end up hurting both drivers. 2007 McLaren comes to mind, along with That late 80's-early 90's rivalry. Look what happened with Vettel-Webber and Rosberg-Hamilton. Two drivers in the same team and only one world title. That cannot be.
    Let's say Bottas was in the fight for the title. Does he hold up Kimi in Italy for Lewis? I highly doubt it. He also made it awfully hard to pass him in UAE, even though everything was decided by that point.

    I hear what you are saying but I cannot see any good coming from two drivers in the same team fighting for the title.
    " Lady - I'm in an awful dilemma.
    Moe - Yeah, I never cared much for these foreign cars either."

  13. #30
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    Quote Originally Posted by N. Jones View Post
    Nitrodaze -

    Gotta disagree with you here. Two drivers fighting for the title in the same team causes issues that end up hurting both drivers. 2007 McLaren comes to mind, along with That late 80's-early 90's rivalry. Look what happened with Vettel-Webber and Rosberg-Hamilton. Two drivers in the same team and only one world title. That cannot be.
    Let's say Bottas was in the fight for the title. Does he hold up Kimi in Italy for Lewis? I highly doubt it. He also made it awfully hard to pass him in UAE, even though everything was decided by that point.

    I hear what you are saying but I cannot see any good coming from two drivers in the same team fighting for the title.
    I agree on the point about two drivers fighting for the title, a proper fight between Hamilton and Bottas for the 2018 title would have handed the title to Vettel that already had Kimi as wing man.

    my point is where one driver is out of contention for the title, he should not simply stop trying because the championship is no longer in reach. Unfortunately, that is what Bottas appear to have done. He appeared to stop trying to at least aim for the 2nd place.
    Better a witty fool than a foolish wit.
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