Page 3 of 7 FirstFirst 12345 ... LastLast
Results 21 to 30 of 61
  1. #21
    Senior Member
    Join Date
    May 2011
    Posts
    2,280
    Like
    51
    Liked 294 Times in 220 Posts
    Quote Originally Posted by Zico View Post
    Agreed..



    Yes, agreed on the whole. Great racing driver but he wasnt as succesful as he could have been due to some character flaws.
    It seems our only disagreement here is over the choice of a single word. If we used the term 'succesfull' instead of 'greatest' racing driver, then that would also encompass that.
    Haha, fair enough.

  2. #22
    Senior Member
    Join Date
    Aug 2010
    Location
    Gran Canaria
    Posts
    1,433
    Like
    257
    Liked 165 Times in 122 Posts
    As for the "greatest ever" discussion, there are mathematical models which objectively compare drivers across different eras and they almost always seem to put Alonso as the best driver of his generation, ahead of Hamilton and often Schumacher (usually depending on whether they include Schumacher's Mercedes results). A quick Google search will return quite a few of these, but here's the first one that appears: https://f1metrics.wordpress.com/2014...est-f1-driver/. For instance, this one puts Alonso as the 3rd best driver ever, whereas Stewart would be 2nd and Clark, 1st. On the other hand, Hamilton is 12th; Vettel, 8th; Rosberg, 7th, and Schumacher, 4th. (Still, that is counting results only up to 2014, and Rosberg's high position benefits from him having beaten Schumacher; if they remove these years, then he falls to 15th)

    That said, these models rank drivers based on their driving ability, but yesterday Jody Scheckter put in a very valid point: he considers Alonso to be an overrated driver because, while no sane person would ever dispute his driving ability, his divisive nature and the fact that he creates chaos pretty much everywhere he goes means that teams will him will often perform at a lower level than if he was a better team player. And I don't think any sane mathematical model can accurately reflect this.
    Last edited by N4D13; 16th August 2018 at 16:38.

  3. Likes: gm99 (18th August 2018)
  4. #23
    Senior Member
    Join Date
    Jul 2006
    Location
    Estonia
    Posts
    6,744
    Like
    145
    Liked 181 Times in 139 Posts
    Quote Originally Posted by N4D13 View Post
    As for the "greatest ever" discussion, there are mathematical models which objectively compare drivers across different eras and they almost always seem to put Alonso as the best driver of his generation, ahead of Hamilton and often Schumacher (usually depending on whether they include Schumacher's Mercedes results). A quick Google search will return quite a few of these, but here's the first one that appears: https://f1metrics.wordpress.com/2014...est-f1-driver/. For instance, this one puts Alonso as the 3rd best driver ever, whereas Stewart would be 2nd and Clark, 1st. On the other hand, Hamilton is 12th; Vettel, 8th; Rosberg, 7th, and Schumacher, 4th. (Still, that is counting results only up to 2014, and Rosberg's high position benefits from him having beaten Schumacher; if they remove these years, then he falls to 15th)

    That said, these models rank drivers based on their driving ability, but yesterday Jody Scheckter put in a very valid point: he considers Alonso to be an overrated driver because, while no sane person would ever dispute his driving ability, his divisive nature and the fact that he creates chaos pretty much everywhere he goes means that teams will him will often perform at a lower level than if he was a better team player. And I don't think any sane mathematical model can accurately reflect this.
    In that link the ranking gets weird pretty quickly. Most strikingly odd ones are that Rosberg is ahead of Hamilton, which should ring some alarm bells. And Senna is down in 19th!

    As for Alonso's position across eras, well, that gets complicated, because F1 history is so long. He is certainly a top driver, and part of the elite of the last 10 years together with Hamilton and Vettel. But that's as much as I would say. Each era has its own elite.

  5. #24
    Senior Member
    Join Date
    May 2011
    Posts
    2,280
    Like
    51
    Liked 294 Times in 220 Posts
    Quote Originally Posted by jens View Post
    In that link the ranking gets weird pretty quickly. Most strikingly odd ones are that Rosberg is ahead of Hamilton, which should ring some alarm bells. And Senna is down in 19th!

    As for Alonso's position across eras, well, that gets complicated, because F1 history is so long. He is certainly a top driver, and part of the elite of the last 10 years together with Hamilton and Vettel. But that's as much as I would say. Each era has its own elite.
    I'd rate Alonso and Hamilton as the best of their era, but I don't know if I could rate Alonso as one of the GOAT's. I think you have to have achieved more to have carry that torch.

    Hamilton is definitely among the GOAT's although I still think he lacks a bit of consistency from time to time.

    Vettel is up there with the best of his generation but I definitely don't rate him among the GOAT's for various reasons but he's riding pretty close.

  6. #25
    Senior Member
    Join Date
    May 2015
    Location
    Greenwich, London UK
    Posts
    1,236
    Like
    0
    Liked 268 Times in 214 Posts
    Blog Entries
    2
    Quote Originally Posted by N4D13 View Post
    As for the "greatest ever" discussion, there are mathematical models which objectively compare drivers across different eras and they almost always seem to put Alonso as the best driver of his generation, ahead of Hamilton and often Schumacher (usually depending on whether they include Schumacher's Mercedes results). A quick Google search will return quite a few of these, but here's the first one that appears: https://f1metrics.wordpress.com/2014...est-f1-driver/. For instance, this one puts Alonso as the 3rd best driver ever, whereas Stewart would be 2nd and Clark, 1st. On the other hand, Hamilton is 12th; Vettel, 8th; Rosberg, 7th, and Schumacher, 4th. (Still, that is counting results only up to 2014, and Rosberg's high position benefits from him having beaten Schumacher; if they remove these years, then he falls to 15th)

    That said, these models rank drivers based on their driving ability, but yesterday Jody Scheckter put in a very valid point: he considers Alonso to be an overrated driver because, while no sane person would ever dispute his driving ability, his divisive nature and the fact that he creates chaos pretty much everywhere he goes means that teams will him will often perform at a lower level than if he was a better team player. And I don't think any sane mathematical model can accurately reflect this.
    The problem with mathematical models is they tend to be hugely subjective. You put rubbish in and you get rubbish out. And you tend to produce a vast number of data to explain your rubbish. This one is definitely poppy cocks. Especially since Hamilton got the better of Alonso in the same car in the same team, l fail to see how the model overlooked that one. Too many other quantifiable variables were not engaged in the model. It was a great attempt but clearly falls short of a credible model.
    Better a witty fool than a foolish wit.
    William Shakespeare

  7. #26
    Senior Member journeyman racer's Avatar
    Join Date
    Nov 2013
    Location
    Melbourne, Australia
    Posts
    890
    Like
    226
    Liked 112 Times in 83 Posts
    Quote Originally Posted by Nitrodaze View Post
    The problem with mathematical models is they tend to be hugely subjective. You put rubbish in and you get rubbish out. And you tend to produce a vast number of data to explain your rubbish. This one is definitely poppy cocks. Especially since Hamilton got the better of Alonso in the same car in the same team, l fail to see how the model overlooked that one. Too many other quantifiable variables were not engaged in the model. It was a great attempt but clearly falls short of a credible model.
    Nitrodaze emphasises the low level of comprehension motorsport fans have nowadays (again).

    Hamilton got the better of Alonso in the same car and team? Alright, It was only one year.

    How did he get the better of him? On a tie breaker having to revert to most 2nd place finishes. He didn't even win more races That now forever defines Hamilton and Alonso. It's the only thing those that want to diminish Alonso have.

    It's not acknowledged by such fans that Alonso's reputation and performances have increased since then. He's beaten (scored more points and/or more wins) Hamilton in inferior cars on numerous seasons since. Whereas Hamilton in his whole career has never beaten Alonso in an inferior car.


    Learn to put things in context. Do I have to do it all the time???

  8. Likes: donKey jote (18th August 2018),Tazio (18th August 2018),TWRC (18th August 2018)
  9. #27
    Senior Member journeyman racer's Avatar
    Join Date
    Nov 2013
    Location
    Melbourne, Australia
    Posts
    890
    Like
    226
    Liked 112 Times in 83 Posts
    Quote Originally Posted by The Black Knight View Post
    I'd rate Alonso and Hamilton as the best of their era, but I don't know if I could rate Alonso as one of the GOAT's. I think you have to have achieved more to have carry that torch.

    Hamilton is definitely among the GOAT's although I still think he lacks a bit of consistency from time to time.

    Vettel is up there with the best of his generation but I definitely don't rate him among the GOAT's for various reasons but he's riding pretty close.
    Then you have TBK. 32 wins and two championships is not enough to be considered an all time great. But he is the best of his era with Hamilton, it's just Hamilton is also an all time great.

    So obviously yuo have to be a stat accumulator to be an all time great...or whatever criteria suits the opinion to say Hamilton is.

  10. Likes: Tazio (18th August 2018)
  11. #28
    Senior Member
    Join Date
    Aug 2010
    Location
    Gran Canaria
    Posts
    1,433
    Like
    257
    Liked 165 Times in 122 Posts
    Quote Originally Posted by Nitrodaze View Post
    The problem with mathematical models is they tend to be hugely subjective. You put rubbish in and you get rubbish out. And you tend to produce a vast number of data to explain your rubbish. This one is definitely poppy cocks. Especially since Hamilton got the better of Alonso in the same car in the same team, l fail to see how the model overlooked that one. Too many other quantifiable variables were not engaged in the model. It was a great attempt but clearly falls short of a credible model.
    Normally I enjoy reading your opinions and may agree with many of them, but quite frankly this sentence here is the most utterly clueless line I've ever read in this forum and I've been here for quite a few years now.

    Jesus Christ, a mathematical model is absolutely anything but subjective. That's the whole point of actually using one. You still need to take the results it gives you with a pinch of salt since every model is just that, a model, and it can't reflect absolutely all of reality (for instance, the Rosberg thing I pointed out), but it sure as hell is a more honest attempt that having anyone alter their GoaT list with their own biases, intentionally or not.

    Take, for instance, the common creed that "Hamilton beat Alonso in the same car, thus Hamilton is the superior driver". journeyman racer correctly pointed out about the fact that they were tied on points and race wins, there's a couple of things that were completely out of the drivers' hands. E.g., Alonso's car damage in Bahrain, Hamilton's tyre blowouts in the Nürburgring and Turkey, Alonso getting a gearbox failure in France qualifying or getting a stop-and-go penalty in Canada for refuelling under the safety car, that ridiculous strategy call by McLaren which prompted Hamilton's retirement in China... so in the end, there were so many circumstances altering their fight that the fact that they actually finished tied in the championship only tells you that they were very close. And of course, there's the fact that 2007 was a particular singular season (switch to single tyre maker, no TC, etc.), and most notably, the obvious notion that Alonso pretty much went to war against his own team that season and is considered the lowest point of his career. WDC standings are definitely not the ultimate benchmark of driver performance, as showcased by Sainz and Verstappen's year together in which Sainz got 4 or 5 mechanical DNFs to Verstappen's one - or Rosberg's last F1 season in which he benefitted from Hamilton's reliability issues.

    Anyway, the fact that there is an objective model which ranks drivers' performances compared to their teammates through their entire career can actually give us a much more honest vision that a single, very skewed and unrepresentative, data point - 2007 was an utter clusterfuck for Alonso, but also Hamilton's rookie season, so you'd have expected both drivers to have raised their game since then. And it's been 11 years already since that, so surely there's a lot more information that you could use to gain a bit more knowledge on who has been driving at a higher level.

    Well, that, of course, or you can dismiss knowledge gained from objectively looking at raw data because it just doesn't fit in with your biased views. That went really well for the peeps in the US.

  12. #29
    Senior Member
    Join Date
    Aug 2001
    Posts
    5,161
    Like
    245
    Liked 188 Times in 140 Posts
    It's a shame to see Alonso go, though at this point I don't think it's any shock at all. With his lack of luck in his F1 decisions over the last 10 years or so, he's been constantly fighting to perform well in cars that usually don't. That can suck the life out of someone who performs so well on track.

    I've for many years had sort of a love/hate thing with Alonso. He's been involved in his scandals, divided some teams, yet on the track the guy is just brilliant. I can't think of a single driver who consistently helped crap cars get up into the points on such a regular basis. His years at Ferrari gave him an ill handling twitchy car, but somehow he at times attacked and hounded cars that he should have never been able to catch.


    As for the entire GOAT type discussions, usually pointless IMO. There are far to many variables beyond the control of any driver that would impact many of the scores, and all the objective information in the world would only work if somehow every single one of those variables are accounted for. I'd struggle to make a list of even modern day (last 30 years or so) drivers without accumulating huge amounts of information, and even then it would take some time.

    But based on pure driving ability, I think Alonso would wind up near the top of many lists. Whatever he ends up doing, I hope we still see him active in motorsports and continuing to prove that he rates up there with the top drivers.

  13. Likes: donKey jote (18th August 2018)
  14. #30
    Senior Member Tazio's Avatar
    Join Date
    Mar 2006
    Location
    San Diego, Ca
    Posts
    14,357
    Like
    818
    Liked 410 Times in 339 Posts
    Quote Originally Posted by The Black Knight View Post
    Maybe. I doubt he'll be back as a driver at his age.
    Fernando Alonso will "definitely" make a Formula 1 comeback if McLaren returns to the front in grand prix racing soon, former team-mate Jenson Button believes.
    "Every driver in the world would love to be in a winning car in Formula 1. You retire, I think, because you get bored of the travel and the stress of it, and if your results aren't there, there's no reason to be there."If the car is quick, I'm sure he'd want to jump back in in 2020."
    https://www.autosport.com/f1/news/13...f1-return-plan
    It his return is dependent on McLaren, you are probably right.
    “There is a great man who makes every man feel small. But the real great man is the man who makes every man feel great.”

Posting Permissions

  • You may not post new threads
  • You may not post replies
  • You may not post attachments
  • You may not edit your posts
  •