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  1. #31
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    IMHO, he should have left earlier in order to have a chance to win Le Mans back in its glory days when the three factory teams were competing. But in 2018, there was just one factory team, Toyota. And it won. For the first time ever. Well, duh. It would have been an epic fail if Toyota didn't win.

  2. #32
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    Quote Originally Posted by journeyman racer View Post
    Nitrodaze emphasises the low level of comprehension motorsport fans have nowadays (again).

    Hamilton got the better of Alonso in the same car and team? Alright, It was only one year.

    How did he get the better of him? On a tie breaker having to revert to most 2nd place finishes. He didn't even win more races That now forever defines Hamilton and Alonso. It's the only thing those that want to diminish Alonso have.

    It's not acknowledged by such fans that Alonso's reputation and performances have increased since then. He's beaten (scored more points and/or more wins) Hamilton in inferior cars on numerous seasons since. Whereas Hamilton in his whole career has never beaten Alonso in an inferior car.


    Learn to put things in context. Do I have to do it all the time???
    Sorry buddy, there is no attempt on my side to diminish Alonso. In 2007, Hamilton was on course to win the championship that year but for a gearbox failure that effectively handed the title to Kimi Raikonenn who incidentally won it by a single championship point. Up to that point, Alonso was trailing Hamilton in the points and was only saved from humiliation from the rookie by the failure of the gearbox in the Hamilton car. Even so, in the championship standing, the FIA placed Hamilton ahead of Alonso at the close of the 2007 season.

    I tend to go with facts not over blown emotions. That aside, if we look at adjusted statistics, Alonso lags behind Hamilton. You may say, bad choices had alot to do with that. The greatness of a driver is usually based on their actual achievements, not their potential achievements. Kind of like saying a bird in hand is worth 20 in the forest.

    Besides, my comment was about the mathematical model not necessarily about Alonso per se.
    Last edited by Nitrodaze; 19th August 2018 at 14:15.
    Better a witty fool than a foolish wit.
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  3. #33
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    Quote Originally Posted by N4D13 View Post
    Normally I enjoy reading your opinions and may agree with many of them, but quite frankly this sentence here is the most utterly clueless line I've ever read in this forum and I've been here for quite a few years now.

    Jesus Christ, a mathematical model is absolutely anything but subjective. That's the whole point of actually using one. You still need to take the results it gives you with a pinch of salt since every model is just that, a model, and it can't reflect absolutely all of reality (for instance, the Rosberg thing I pointed out), but it sure as hell is a more honest attempt that having anyone alter their GoaT list with their own biases, intentionally or not.

    Take, for instance, the common creed that "Hamilton beat Alonso in the same car, thus Hamilton is the superior driver". journeyman racer correctly pointed out about the fact that they were tied on points and race wins, there's a couple of things that were completely out of the drivers' hands. E.g., Alonso's car damage in Bahrain, Hamilton's tyre blowouts in the Nürburgring and Turkey, Alonso getting a gearbox failure in France qualifying or getting a stop-and-go penalty in Canada for refuelling under the safety car, that ridiculous strategy call by McLaren which prompted Hamilton's retirement in China... so in the end, there were so many circumstances altering their fight that the fact that they actually finished tied in the championship only tells you that they were very close. And of course, there's the fact that 2007 was a particular singular season (switch to single tyre maker, no TC, etc.), and most notably, the obvious notion that Alonso pretty much went to war against his own team that season and is considered the lowest point of his career. WDC standings are definitely not the ultimate benchmark of driver performance, as showcased by Sainz and Verstappen's year together in which Sainz got 4 or 5 mechanical DNFs to Verstappen's one - or Rosberg's last F1 season in which he benefitted from Hamilton's reliability issues.

    Anyway, the fact that there is an objective model which ranks drivers' performances compared to their teammates through their entire career can actually give us a much more honest vision that a single, very skewed and unrepresentative, data point - 2007 was an utter clusterfuck for Alonso, but also Hamilton's rookie season, so you'd have expected both drivers to have raised their game since then. And it's been 11 years already since that, so surely there's a lot more information that you could use to gain a bit more knowledge on who has been driving at a higher level.

    Well, that, of course, or you can dismiss knowledge gained from objectively looking at raw data because it just doesn't fit in with your biased views. That went really well for the peeps in the US.

    Mathematical models attempts to approximate to the ideal solution of a problem space. The architecture of the model and the quality of the data inputted into the model largely determines the quality of the result that you get out of it. Mathematical model tend to be designed for a specific class of problems, hence are inherently subjective. Mathematical models are really dumb tools with great skills. The objectivity of the result of a mathematical model rest largely on the user of the model and the choice of variables that he/she inputs into the model.

    In short, mathematical model lacks the capability of being objective. I happen to design and use mathematical models for a living.

    On the point about Alonso, l have not suggested that Hamilton is better than Alonso due to the Mclaren year when they were both teammates, but a complete analysis of their achievements todate. You forget that Alonso's high esteem originates from the fact that he defeated Schumacher twice driving a Renault car against Schumacher in a Ferrari. Though this feat was also achieved by Mika Hakkenan, the youthful Alonso grabbed the imagination of the F1 world.

    I rate Alonso hugely. Like Alonso did to Schumacher, Hamilton and Vettel have emerged to claim the limelight. For diehard Alonso admirers, this is hard to accept. When one has to compare the quality of a driver to their immediate peers, one has to take into consideration all aspects of competition. We typically start with facts, hence the relative achievements is what we use to judge each driver. The potential of a driver is important but not neccessarily predominant in considering the relative superiority. If this were the case, Redbull or Mercedes would have snatched Alonso from Mclaren.

    Mercedes did not, because they know they have a championship winning driver that can take on anyone on the grid, including Alonso in a championship winning car. Redbull for reasons already discussed above.

    I really really lose respect for people that attempt to make unimportant the achievements of illustrious drivers simply because they have some prejudice against them. You don't like the guy, so you say his achievements are crap for whatever reasons, without proper respect for the commitments, hardwork, efforts and dedication that has resulted in those achievements. Attaining the records that Schumacher, Hamilton,. Vettel, Prost, Senna etc have achieve in their career are feats of giants to say the least.
    Last edited by Nitrodaze; 19th August 2018 at 19:46.
    Better a witty fool than a foolish wit.
    William Shakespeare

  4. Likes: N4D13 (20th August 2018)
  5. #34
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    Fernando brought a fire to F1 that I will miss , and I desperately hope he'll come back .
    The greats are the ones that get cited when the best put-downs are thrown .
    A phrase like "nobody , not even Lewis could drive that Williams car" comes to mind .

    A great is one who wins .
    But , a great can also be someone who doesn't , if the crowd deems he should have done so .

    Alonso is all of that .
    I'll miss him .

  6. Likes: donKey jote (21st August 2018),Tazio (21st August 2018)
  7. #35
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    Quote Originally Posted by Bagwan View Post
    Fernando brought a fire to F1 that I will miss , and I desperately hope he'll come back .
    The greats are the ones that get cited when the best put-downs are thrown .
    A phrase like "nobody , not even Lewis could drive that Williams car" comes to mind .

    A great is one who wins .
    But , a great can also be someone who doesn't , if the crowd deems he should have done so .

    Alonso is all of that .
    I'll miss him .
    Wise head Bagwan. I appreciate your well chosen word here. But l think we should not use the word "Great" too loosely. To say a driver is great must not be based on the emotional impact that the individual evokes in the F1 community. It should be based on supremacy of the individual above his peers of his time.
    Winning world championships is not an easy feat. It is a very demanding and properly testing experience to emerge ahead in the midst of others also trying hard to supersede your efforts. To emerge the best of 20 races per season is a long and arduous challenge which require immense dedication, focus and determination. This also includes making the right choices to ensure he is better positioned to succeed above the competition.

    The greats are the ones that take these tests repeatedly and ensure that they come out ahead of the rest. And the statistics show why they are and how they have managed to be ahead. I have thought many drivers in the past deserve or have done enough to be world champion but haven't. Eddie Irvine and Rubens Barrichello comes to mind.

    I think we should reserve the word Great for those that actually achieve the measure of success that is not ordinarily available to even the most talented of drivers on the grid.And drivers like Michael Schumacher, Lewis Hamilton, Sabastien Vettel, Alain Prost and Ayton Senna; to name a few in recent times are in this very special group that we can easily say are great drivers. They command and evoke special emotion of their racecraft but support it with benchmark successes.
    Last edited by Nitrodaze; 21st August 2018 at 06:35.
    Better a witty fool than a foolish wit.
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  8. #36
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    "Not even Eddie could drive that car".
    "Not even Rubens could drive that car".

    Nope , never heard anyone say either of those phrases .

    Although both of those guys were fun to watch , they never had the ability to put everyone on the edge of their seat every time as Fernando has done .
    And , they never seemed to me to have caused the same dread in a driver when showing up in his rear view mirrors .

    I wasn't using the word "great" "loosely" at all .

  9. Likes: Tazio (22nd August 2018)
  10. #37
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    Next time just submit a request to the greatness commission so you won't use unapproved adjectives for non-Hamilton drivers.

  11. #38
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    Quote Originally Posted by Big Ben View Post
    Next time just submit a request to the greatness commission so you won't use unapproved adjectives for non-Hamilton drivers.
    :-) :-) touche pssssst
    Better a witty fool than a foolish wit.
    William Shakespeare

  12. #39
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    Quote Originally Posted by Bagwan View Post
    "Not even Eddie could drive that car".
    "Not even Rubens could drive that car".

    Nope , never heard anyone say either of those phrases .

    Although both of those guys were fun to watch , they never had the ability to put everyone on the edge of their seat every time as Fernando has done .
    And , they never seemed to me to have caused the same dread in a driver when showing up in his rear view mirrors .

    I wasn't using the word "great" "loosely" at all .
    I agree completely but Alonso could have been one of the great drivers but unfortunately isn't. He definitely is a brilliant driver and a double world champion who most of us expected to emulate the illustrious achievements of Michael Schumacher. The expectation set by Alonso's rise to two world championship was that he was the guy who like Schumacher would dominate the formula for years after Schumacher retires. Unfortunately, he didn't, hence why he has not met the criteria that would have warranted him to be called a great driver.

    I appreciate the word great for some is synonymous to brilliant. I mean one of the GOAT which is not necessarily brilliant.
    Better a witty fool than a foolish wit.
    William Shakespeare

  13. #40
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    Quote Originally Posted by Nitrodaze View Post
    I agree completely but Alonso could have been one of the great drivers but unfortunately isn't. He definitely is a brilliant driver and a double world champion who most of us expected to emulate the illustrious achievements of Michael Schumacher. The expectation set by Alonso's rise to two world championship was that he was the guy who like Schumacher would dominate the formula for years after Schumacher retires. Unfortunately, he didn't, hence why he has not met the criteria that would have warranted him to be called a great driver.

    I appreciate the word great for some is synonymous to brilliant. I mean one of the GOAT which is not necessarily brilliant.
    The proper and fully approved formula for greatness , approved by the bagwan , himself , when the big "think about it" occurred a few minutes ago , states categorically that instilling fear when seen in a driver's rear view , or , indeed great satisfaction at passing him , no matter what he was driving , makes him one of the greats .

  14. Likes: Big Ben (22nd August 2018)

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