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  1. #2581
    Senior Member Allez Andruet's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by rallyfiend View Post
    Kim Vatanen worked with Ogier in his early career. And many other drivers...
    With all due respect to Kim Vatanen, his resume and legacy (when it comes to managing WRC drivers) is not even in the same ballpark as Jouhki's.
    ku ois neljä pyörää ku vetäis ni ois vähän eri sekunnit kyllä pätkillä, sen mä takaan

  2. Likes: pantealex (17th July 2019),Rallyper (17th July 2019)
  3. #2582
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    Quote Originally Posted by AnttiL View Post
    Who else can you name? Veiby? How many titles? Jouhki already decided to retire but then Suninen(?) changed his mind
    Looks like you missed my point here. He might well be the most known manager or even the "best".
    But saying it about himself that way makes him look arrogant.

    Tanak is the probably the fastest driver atm, but does not go around saying that, therefore he is popular. While Neuville who is a bit more vocal about himselff is considered arrogant. Jouhki seems to be on another level above that again.

  4. Likes: skarderud (17th July 2019)
  5. #2583
    Senior Member Allez Andruet's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by AnttiL View Post
    Who else can you name? Veiby? How many titles? Jouhki already decided to retire but then Suninen(?) changed his mind
    Exactly. And I have no reason to hype up Jouhki any further, but his CV speaks volumes. Sure, not even his clients have been able to unseat any of the Sebs, but that hardly serves as any kind of base for a conclusion that he would have lost his touch or anything like that.
    ku ois neljä pyörää ku vetäis ni ois vähän eri sekunnit kyllä pätkillä, sen mä takaan

  6. Likes: pantealex (17th July 2019)
  7. #2584
    Senior Member Allez Andruet's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by mknight View Post
    He might well be the most known manager or even the "best".
    But saying it about himself that way makes him look arrogant.
    And how's that affecting his resume?

    Btw, there's always a sense of humor in his so-called arrogance.
    ku ois neljä pyörää ku vetäis ni ois vähän eri sekunnit kyllä pätkillä, sen mä takaan

  8. Likes: AnttiL (17th July 2019),pantealex (17th July 2019)
  9. #2585
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    Quote Originally Posted by Allez Andruet View Post
    And how's that affecting his resume?

    Btw, there's always a sense of humor in his so-called arrogance.
    His resume is not exactly bulletproof. You mentioned only two Sebs, but Solberg, Burns and Gronholm won 4 championships in total in same period.
    As mentioned Gardermeister always seemed to end in a wrong team (Seat, Mitsu just as it started to loose out and then Skoda). Hirvonens career almost got destroyed by the too early move to a full time drive at Subaru (granted this was also due to Burns illness).

    His method of "buying" seats for "almost" ready drivers is disliked by a lot of people. The typical argument is that it created a new "norm" where even relatively established drivers with good speed are expected to "bring budget". Recent example Tidemand as a WRC2 champion didn't bring money, while Suninen who often was slower than him was pushed in with budget.
    (btw. Veiby's method of never paying anything seems to be the other extreme, probably not good either). Sure this effect of "buying" places has been there for ages, but it becoming a norm is associated with Jouhki prbly due to that 2004 Hirvonen year.

    This way the amount of money people bring is becoming more important than actual skills, so that you risk getting more "weaker" drivers with money than very good ones without money. Since none of his drivers won the title in last 20 years it's not so easy to argue that the drivers he brought in were really the best.

  10. #2586
    Senior Member Allez Andruet's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by mknight View Post
    His resume is not exactly bulletproof.
    Still waiting for you to name a WRC manager with better one...

    Quote Originally Posted by mknight View Post
    You mentioned only two Sebs, but Solberg, Burns and Gronholm won 4 championships in total in same period.
    After a period (1986-1999) in which Jouhki's clients had took 8 out of 14 available titles. And as was already mentioned in this topic, Jouhki already retired (i.e didn't look for new drivers) after Latvala and actually returned with new talent only in 2015 with Suninen.

    Quote Originally Posted by mknight View Post
    Hirvonens career almost got destroyed by the too early move to a full time drive at Subaru (granted this was also due to Burns illness).
    I struggle to figure out what Burnsie has to do with all this, but the fact that Hirvonen's career DID NOT get destroyed has to be counted as a major accomplishment for Jouhki as that's what managers are being paid for, right?

    Quote Originally Posted by mknight View Post
    His method of "buying" seats for "almost" ready drivers is disliked by a lot of people. The typical argument is that it created a new "norm" where even relatively established drivers with good speed are expected to "bring budget". Recent example Tidemand as a WRC2 champion didn't bring money, while Suninen who often was slower than him was pushed in with budget.
    (btw. Veiby's method of never paying anything seems to be the other extreme, probably not good either). Sure this effect of "buying" places has been there for ages, but it becoming a norm is associated with Jouhki prbly due to that 2004 Hirvonen year.

    This way the amount of money people bring is becoming more important than actual skills, so that you risk getting more "weaker" drivers with money than very good ones without money. Since none of his drivers won the title in last 20 years it's not so easy to argue that the drivers he brought in were really the best.
    Oh yes, "buying seats", maybe the most hypocrite of all excuses. As team managers had never heard about that possibility before the big bad Jouhki introduced the method... Newsflash: securing funding has always played a big role especially in all motorsport.
    ku ois neljä pyörää ku vetäis ni ois vähän eri sekunnit kyllä pätkillä, sen mä takaan

  11. #2587
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    Quote Originally Posted by Allez Andruet View Post
    Still waiting for you to name a WRC manager with better one...
    20 years without title while managing 4 drivers (5 if you count Suninen) during that period, counts as less than optimal record to me.

    Quote Originally Posted by Allez Andruet View Post
    I struggle to figure out what Burnsie has to do with all this, but the fact that Hirvonen's career DID NOT get destroyed has to be counted as a major accomplishment for Jouhki as that's what managers are being paid for, right?
    Burns was signed for Subaru in 2004. If he did drive I am not sure if Hirvonen would even drive full season with them but due to Burns not being able to drive, Hirvonen got to drive full season as n2.
    That season Subaru was prbly the fastest car overall (on gravel it was without a doubt) with Solberg winning 94 stages.... Hirvonen won 2 and his best results were two 4th places. While notably C. McRae was sitting out without a contract.
    Possible Jouhki's fault there was that he put Hirvonen into a position he was not ready for too early.


    Quote Originally Posted by Allez Andruet View Post
    Oh yes, "buying seats", maybe the most hypocrite of all excuses. As team managers had never heard about that possibility before the big bad Jouhki introduced the method... Newsflash: securing funding has always played a big role especially in all motorsport.
    Jouhki got famous for it in rally in a bad way... with Hirvonen.

  12. #2588
    Senior Member KiwiWRCfan's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by rallyfiend View Post
    Kim Vatanen worked with Ogier in his early career. And many other drivers...
    can anyone recall if Ogier sacked Kim V - relationship did not last long. If I recall correctly unhappy parting of ways and Ogier required his name be removed from KVs website
    https://twitter.com/KiwiWRCfan adding a fans perspective to Twitter

  13. Likes: pantealex (17th July 2019)
  14. #2589
    Senior Member racerx1979's Avatar
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    Maybe Jouhki knows JML or Meeke are out?? Would be weird for him to replace JML with Kalle. So maybe Meeke is out? Very interesting for sure. 4 car team for TGR next year? We will know soon

  15. #2590
    Senior Member Rallyper's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by KiwiWRCfan View Post
    can anyone recall if Ogier sacked Kim V - relationship did not last long. If I recall correctly unhappy parting of ways and Ogier required his name be removed from KVs website
    Kim V was partner to Emil B as well. Not good for Emil joining those "forces".
    "Reis vas pät pat kaar vas kut"
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  16. Likes: pantealex (17th July 2019)

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